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Poll shows majority of British people support burqa ban Watch

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    (Original post by CrazySkittles)
    The burqa is not compulsory. It's a rule or law from the country of which that muslim is from. For example Tantawi it's compulsory but the religion doesn't say it is. It's more of a culture. The Hijab or Head scarf is however compulsory by law in Islam.
    Yeah i thought it would be a cultural thing if not religious. This doesn't mean just because its cultural they shouldn't wear it, you can't change someones culture.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    If you can't see why your point was asinine then I don't hold out much hope for your future posts.*
    however will i cope now kim kardashian doesn't approve of my posts:cry:
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    (Original post by Josb)
    It's only a matter of time before we see Islamist parties. The link will be much more obvious then.
    Alarmism.
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    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    As is paying taxes. Are taxes, therefore, also a symbol of extremism?
    Come on now. Who are you kidding that this adds anything to your argument? Ok, so...I do not support the ban. But I would like to see the back of religion. The excuses the french made for the ban were a load of ********. Burka wearing women don't often kill people. Most are decent people. Extremism does not mean committing a terror atrocity, this is not the definition. The burka helps women to adhere to extreme interpretations of religious modesty edicts that are rooted in some rather sinister attitudes. As a woman, dressing in accordance with such edicts is often done under some level of coercion. An outright order from a government via the police to strip on a public beach is the opposite of helpful. The way forward will be to educate women so that they can make better choices as to how to live.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Come on now. Who are you kidding that this adds anything to your argument?
    I haven't made an argument.

    Ok, so...I do not support the ban. But I would like to see the back of religion. The excuses the french made for the ban were a load of ********. Burka wearing women don't often kill people. Most are decent people. Extremism does not mean committing a terror atrocity, this is not the definition. The burka helps women to adhere to extreme interpretations of religious modesty edicts that are rooted in some rather sinister attitudes. As a woman, dressing in accordance with such edicts is often done under some level of coercion. An outright order from a government via the police to strip on a public beach is the opposite of helpful. The way forward will be to educate women so that they can make better choices as to how to live.
    A burkini ≠ a burka.

    As for the bit in bold, that strikes me as an attack on individualism and an arrogant assumption that the government is in a position to tell people how they should dress/live.
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    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    I haven't made an argument.


    A burkini ≠ a burka.

    As for the bit in bold, that strikes me as an attack on individualism and an arrogant assumption that the government is in a position to tell people how they should dress/live.
    Hmm ok lawyer3c, pretty sure you are arguing a point of view there.

    Yes burkinis and burkas as so totally dissimilar I have no idea why people are talking about both in this thread, the association I have made must be on a very very subconscious level, apologies.

    As for the bit about the bit in bold; well I did state just before this that I do not agree with the ban and the way it has been enforced. Maybe you read from right to left and never got to that bit? I did not employ assumptions because I have personal experience having been religious, and then being educated out of it. But let's value individualism over the damage done by coercing people into certain lifestyles and allowing them to be immune from criticism.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    Hmm ok lawyer3c, pretty sure you are arguing a point of view there.
    At the time you made that statement I had not made an "argument" - I had merely asked a question to point out the poor logic of another poster.

    Yes burkinis and burkas as so totally dissimilar I have no idea why people are talking about both in this thread, the association I have made must be on a very very subconscious level, apologies.
    No problem.

    But let's value individualism over the damage done by coercing people into certain lifestyles and allowing them to be immune from criticism.
    I never suggested making anything "immune from criticism". By all means, criticise Islam/religion/policies/etc as you wish.
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    (Original post by Dysto)
    I don't think covering your face should be legal, there's freedom then there's religious over-privilege.
    What about people who cover their face with scarves in the winter because it's quite cold, should they be locked up?
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    proof that the UK is now a regressive country, thanks kingbradly
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Not true. A nuns outfit relates to her profession of being a nun this is not the case for muslim women who wear a burka.

    It is more akin to a police uniform while the burka is a fashion choice.
    You may have responded wrongly to the word "functionally". The function of a burqua is to cover certain parts (ie virtually all) of the body. The motivation of the wearer is irrelevant unless it can be used as part of the definition of what is rendered illegal.

    The problem is that it becomes impossible to define what is to be prohibited in neutral language without catching a nun's habit. Unless you say Muslim women cannot wear all body enveloping clothes or that such clothes cannot be worn to show an affiliation with Islam, you do not have workable legislation and if you do say this, and if you do say that, then you are saying there is nothing morally wrong with saying Jews must wear yellow stars.

    What is almost universally seen as the poorest piece of legislation on the statute book is the Dangerous Dogs Act and one of the major reasons was it was an attempt to outlaw a breed, the American Pit Bull, that was unrecognised and therefore undefined by any dog registration body. A dog can be a pitbull even though neither of its parents was.

    Have a go at defining a burqa and see what the problems are
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    I certainly agree with the post above. Banning the burqa isn't much better than enforcing women to wear burqas in islamic countries. I believe we see this garment as symbol of aniti-western tradition, a cheek to women's rights etc. Even if its true, and living outside of burqa-related traditions would be better for eastern women, isn't it better to acknowledge them with our customs without banning their heritage?
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    (Original post by Captain Jack)
    It's not an argument, it is a view.
    All arguments are views, presented in opposition to another's views.
    You presented your view in response to the views presented by others, therefore making an argument.
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    (Original post by polysci)
    First: surveys and polls always have an inherent bias. This is because they aren't run by "Professor Xavier" and hence can only capture data that people choose to supply. This means they tend to capture data from people who (a) have time to answer and (b) find the issue worth commenting on. If we put (a) and (b) together, a more accurate title for the poll may be "the majority of (a) unemployed (b) racists plus a few bored politics students support a burqa ban". I really wish that newspapers and blogs would stop publishing results with such sweeping titles because they create an unwitting influence campaign and confirmation bias in the (tiny) minds of racists.
    First: we now know that you do not understand how surveys and opinion polls are untertaken.
    We also know that you don't understand what "racist" means (or perhaps you do, but are hoping that lobbing the R-bomb will add weight to a flawed argument).

    Second: I agree that repression/oppression of women exists. Marrying/forcing a child into sexual relationships is wrong (Yemen, I'm looking at you). FGM is abhorrent. However, the burqa is a piece of clothing. It sits at the other end of the spectrum from a thong bikini, but it's just clothing. Guys who say "it's a symbol of oppression" are making the same error (in a different direction) as guys who say "she's asking for it" when a girl's in a short dress. Clothes are clothes.
    Second: we now know that you have no idea of the Islamic concepts of faith, modesty, hijab, or fiqh. (or perhaps you do, but are simply being dsingenuous in order to add weight to a flawed argument).

    This doesn't mean I would wear a burqa, but that's my choice and if a girl chooses to wear one, that's her choice. You will be in class at university with girls in burqas. They've chosen to study, chosen to move away from home (sometimes to a different country)... they've also chosen to wear a certain type of clothing and believe in something (in exactly the same way a nun or football fan does) and are not "oppressed".
    If a Muslimah genuinely believes in Allah, and also that he cares whether you obey him or not, and has the will and ability to punish those who disobey him, and regards the niqab/burqa as a command from god - she is not freely choosing to wear it because of the consequences for not weraing it.
    Then there is family, peer and community pressure.
    So it is clearly not a simple choice like whether to wear jeans or a skirt.

    Underneath that burqa there's a girl who deserves your respect and is going to be more than capable of being a brilliant friend (although they may skip the drinking games).
    Respect is earned, not demanded.
    And are you claiming that all niqabis are the same? And it is making quite an assumption that a person who believes so strongly in an ideology that I find largely unacceptable is capable of being a "brilliant friend".

    Confession time: I've had intimate sexual relationships with girls who wear the burqa... believe me, once you've got them in just their skin they're pure woman... and every bit as beautiful as someone who lives in spandex shorts and a t-shirt.
    I smell ********.

    At the end of the day it all comes down to how much wrapping paper you like on your birthday present
    Ah yes, the old "women are the possessions of men" analogy.
    Well done! :congrats:
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    (Original post by ajay1998)
    Yeah that's fine, they can wear whatever they want for whatever reasons. It's none of my business what they wear on a daily basis, I'm not Gok Wan.
    So the nature of the niqab and the nun's habit are not the same.
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    (Original post by DicksOut4Haraam)
    The state has no business policing people's choice of clothing.
    The issue of face-covering in particular situations is somewhat different.

    Anywhere where a person is required to remove a full-face helmet, balaclava, etc, they should also be required to remove facial element of a niqab or burqa. There is no cogent argument against this.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    It's only a matter of time before we see Islamist parties. The link will be much more obvious then.
    It is hard to argue that Islam is not political when the constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Quran and sunnah (for example).
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    (Original post by Josb)
    It's only a matter of time before we see Islamist parties. The link will be much more obvious then.
    Well we have the BNP. Don't see why an Islamist party is any worse. Or are you some kind of safe space authoritarian?

    Luckily those types of parties in the UK are no where near able to get power and mass democratic support.
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    (Original post by Zeus007)
    Yeah i thought it would be a cultural thing if not religious. This doesn't mean just because its cultural they shouldn't wear it, you can't change someones culture.
    Of course you can. This comes from a culture that has no place in a civilised society, stemming from radical relgious xtremeism and treating women as lesser than men. (Hence the countries this 'culture' comes from women can't even legally drive).

    Maybe you can't change someones culture, but you can tell them it isn't appropriate here.

    I mean damn its cultural in some African countries to mutilate female babies (FGM). Does that mean its ok because its cultural and we should just accept it? Or maybe some cultures should be challenged.
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    (Original post by JG1233)
    Of course you can. This comes from a culture that has no place in a civilised society, stemming from radical relgious xtremeism and treating women as lesser than men. (Hence the countries this 'culture' comes from women can't even legally drive).

    Maybe you can't change someones culture, but you can tell them it isn't appropriate here.

    I mean damn its cultural in some African countries to mutilate female babies (FGM). Does that mean its ok because its cultural and we should just accept it? Or maybe some cultures should be challenged.
    Yeah this is such a civilised society we live in that a women choosing to be modest is a horrible thing. Mutilating babies and choosing to wear a certain clothing is a big difference. Your points are unintelligent and just bad.
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    (Original post by Zeus007)
    Yeah this is such a civilised society we live in that a women choosing to be modest is a horrible thing. Mutilating babies and choosing to wear a certain clothing is a big difference. Your points are unintelligent and just bad.
    Are you honestly trying to suggest our society is less civilised than the Saudi societies you are trying to emulate? Choosing? you clearly have no clue. Whilst some women in the UK maybe choose to wear the burqa, they are copying a culture of women who have no choice. Where they are barely even second class citizens, and i personally would rather leave that mindset in those countries.

    My point was you said that we have to respect cultures. I said we don't, some cultures are not worthy of respect and have no place in a civilised world. Whether it be oppressing women in the name of a religion or anything else.
 
 
 
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