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Niqab wearer asked to leave restaurant in Germany

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    (Original post by Josb)

    And the women who wear these outfit keep claiming that they do it out of choice.
    So you believe that?

    What about the women who can not say that?

    Why are you denying them the option to got the beach?

    "
    It is honestly a bit confusing to me, this idea that prominent examples of women vocally and visibly defending their adherence to hijab in a certain community can act AS EVIDENCE that hijab is not coerced in that context.Because pointing to visible examples of positive, willing adherence to the hijab does not and cannot speak to what happens in the case of dissent.

    Sanctioned modesty is very, very much a pressing and relevant issue in Muslim communities in the West. Women suffering from this are largely invisible, closeted, and unheard, and unfortunately unless one is immersed in the problem, or has access to safe ex-Muslim or reformist Muslim spaces, one is not liable be exposed to this problem, its mechanics, to understand how deep it runs.

    The Muslim women who have visibility and whose voices are elevated and endorsed by their communities? They are not the ones dissenting to their community’s norms. Is that not intuitive?I don’t know what people mean or understand by “coercion,” but positive adherence to modesty doctrine does not negate the presence of constraint.Further to that, positive adherence to modesty doctrine in the presence of social sanction and encouragement is only to be expected.

    Conforming to an extant social norm and feeling free and empowered to do so is not only entirely possible in the presence of systemic constraint, but encouraged and enabled by it. Especially if it is adherence within a fold that has no truck with outsiders (eg particularly insular communities).

    Because while those who choose to conform are visible, those who are not free to dissent are not.
    "

    http://www.theexmuslim.com/2016/08/2...onate-outrage/

    Why don't you listen to Ex-Muslims?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I understand your logic (and it makes sense) but I'm not a very good liberal I don't place the rights of property above people.

    Whether it is the state or a property owner being stupid or prejudiced makes no difference to me. From my point of view they are intertwined anyway. The private property owner relies on the state to protect his/her's property. Banning a wearing a
    burkha Muslim woman from a public beach or private restaurant is basically the same thing. It's either based on a prejudice against these women, not wanting to eat/beach in the presence of opressed women or is some kind of well meaning but nonetheless idiotic attempt at freeing said oppressed women.

    I'm just listening to people like this basically.
    http://www.theexmuslim.com/2016/08/2...onate-outrage/

    I understood your analogy I get you point that we wouldn't bat an eye lid if a restaurant kicked out some KKK people for wearing their ghost robes. I just think my analogy better sums up what is going on. These women are the oppressed party which is an important factor when making an analogy. Although I admit I didn't read the OP

    Since I don't respect private property rights to the same level you do I;m fine with the government telling restaurant owners they can't ban burkha wearing women but they can ban bed sheet wearing KKK members. The rights of the oppressed Muslim woman trumps that of the restaurant owner and his property.
    So basically Muslim women deserve more rights than others.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So basically Muslim women deserve more rights than others.
    More they need to be protected in order to help facilitate their liberation.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    More they need to protected in order to help facilitate their liberation.
    So we shouldn't treat them like everyone else?
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    Whats the basis of your argument? to see how obnoxious you can be? sure you can walk in and around a mosque with your shoes on, yeh it wouldn't be respectful but then again in Islam any place that is clean is a perfect place to pray, mosque or not. So essentially you not entering a mosque with your shoes on does no one any favors, Muslim women particularly are not in need of your pity or your activism on their part especially women who have chosen a certain lifestyle for themselves. Every comparison from balaclava's to trainers are pathetic and beautifully display the immaturity of the 'enlightened' millennials, have you not the ability to do your own prodding and pocking in to the matter that is the Niqab? have you actually read anything more than newspaper articles and blog-posts? I suggest you study yourself before you study any other religion, its people and their practices. Believe me you'll understand a significance to not relying on your face as the center for communication or conversation but rather your intellect and imagination. Nothing can be forced; the adornment nor the removal of an independent decision that can be the Niqab for many women. Mind you be local with your concerns from time to time, a woman in Afghanistan who is forced into wearing the veil is not the same as a woman in a veil across the street from you enjoying culinary artistry in a restaurant or in a cafe. Besides you'll never be in a position to speak from a Niqabi woman's point of view unless you've first hand experience (i.e: you've worn it yourself) either in supporting her or denouncing her. Let her speak for herself. Thank You.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So you believe that?

    What about the women who can not say that?

    Why are you denying them the option to got the beach?

    "
    It is honestly a bit confusing to me, this idea that prominent examples of women vocally and visibly defending their adherence to hijab in a certain community can act AS EVIDENCE that hijab is not coerced in that context.Because pointing to visible examples of positive, willing adherence to the hijab does not and cannot speak to what happens in the case of dissent.

    Sanctioned modesty is very, very much a pressing and relevant issue in Muslim communities in the West. Women suffering from this are largely invisible, closeted, and unheard, and unfortunately unless one is immersed in the problem, or has access to safe ex-Muslim or reformist Muslim spaces, one is not liable be exposed to this problem, its mechanics, to understand how deep it runs.

    The Muslim women who have visibility and whose voices are elevated and endorsed by their communities? They are not the ones dissenting to their community’s norms. Is that not intuitive?I don’t know what people mean or understand by “coercion,” but positive adherence to modesty doctrine does not negate the presence of constraint.Further to that, positive adherence to modesty doctrine in the presence of social sanction and encouragement is only to be expected.

    Conforming to an extant social norm and feeling free and empowered to do so is not only entirely possible in the presence of systemic constraint, but encouraged and enabled by it. Especially if it is adherence within a fold that has no truck with outsiders (eg particularly insular communities).

    Because while those who choose to conform are visible, those who are not free to dissent are not.
    "

    http://www.theexmuslim.com/2016/08/2...onate-outrage/

    Why don't you listen to Ex-Muslims?
    I don't get how allowing this outfit helps these women. People don't live in compounds like in Saudi Arabia and are thus forced to interact with the rest of us. Women cannot be secluded 24/7 in the West, their "guardians" have to let them out at some point.

    Anyway, I refuse to accept their degenerate lifestyle.
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    (Original post by samaad1)
    Becuase those things do not need to be wore inside however for muslim women and girls the niqab hijab burqah all have to be worn inside
    But this guy doesn't want people wearing it inside his establishment, so they should either take it off or leave.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    If someone wants to wear a certain clothing regardless of what other people think and say then yes wear it however people are just going to complain regardless of what is 'offending' a person. If I was eating a muffin I guarantee someone would get annoyed simply because I am eating or then they look at what religion am from and prejudices. If this lady wanted to eat in this restaurant let her at the end of the day you want your money and plus as this lady liked the restaurant( Hence her going inside it) she will recommend it to others. This is just discriminatory. Yes I will defend that lady as I myself is a proud niqab wearer and wouldn't like to be treated like that! Its disgraceful... just because you want to see our faces they make it 'news'. No its just wrong on so many levels.
    So if you owned a restaurant and I came in as a customer wearing a t-shirt proclaiming horrible things about your prophet you'd be totally fine with it? After all, you'd just want my money, right, and I can wear whatever I want, wherever I want? And you'll defend my decision and my right to wear that t-shirt?
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    Of course not. What sort of question is that?
    You clearly find that offensive. Is it too much of a stretch for you to accept that a large percentage of non-Muslims find the veil offensive?

    I don't care in the slightest how you cover the rest of your body but the niqab is not compatible with Western culture. To me when worn out of choice it seems a deliberate rejection of our society and passive-aggressive attention seeking. I'm not exactly a sexy dresser but I would adjust what I wear in a culture that expected it and I don't see why niqab wearers can't have the same level of respect for our society. I wouldn't ban it but by choosing to wear it you have to accept the non-violent responses you get to it.
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    (Original post by samaad1)
    religion is down to interpretation and although many muslims do things that are against our religion it's not down for me to judge them on their actions however muslim women "should" wear the hijab and make sure their breasts are covered “and not display their beauty except what is apparent, and they should place their khumur over their bosoms" khumur being a veil covering the head
    So you are saying that Muslim women who don't wear the hijab are not following Islam properly, so are therefore "Not True Muslims".

    Does this apply to every instruction in the Quran?
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    (Original post by samaad1)
    lmao my parents go mad when I kill a moth
    And yet, slitting the throat of a lamb while it is fully conscious if just fine. (Not to mention chopping hands and feet off, flogging, crucifixion, etc)

    You're going to have to explain that, because it makes absolutely no sense to me. :confused:
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    (Original post by Angry Bird)
    how
    Come on. Think. It really isn't that difficult!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    And yet, slitting the throat of a lamb while it is fully conscious if just fine. (Not to mention chopping hands and feet off, flogging, crucifixion, etc)

    You're going to have to explain that, because it makes absolutely no sense to me. :confused:
    so you're a vegan?
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    As a Muslim you can understand this decision, especially the Muslim women who were accused of acts of terrorism, so everyone is on high alert
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    x
    I think it is pretty clear that there are some women who wear the niqab/burqa because it is required by family/community, some because they believe it is required by their religion, and some who wear it as a militant socio-political statement.

    From the evidence available, the woman in this case would appear to belong to the latter group.
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    (Original post by Tresspasser)
    Whats the basis of your argument? to see how obnoxious you can be? sure you can walk in and around a mosque with your shoes on, yeh it wouldn't be respectful but then again in Islam any place that is clean is a perfect place to pray, mosque or not. So essentially you not entering a mosque with your shoes on does no one any favors, Muslim women particularly are not in need of your pity or your activism on their part especially women who have chosen a certain lifestyle for themselves. Every comparison from balaclava's to trainers are pathetic and beautifully display the immaturity of the 'enlightened' millennials, have you not the ability to do your own prodding and pocking in to the matter that is the Niqab? have you actually read anything more than newspaper articles and blog-posts? I suggest you study yourself before you study any other religion, its people and their practices. Believe me you'll understand a significance to not relying on your face as the center for communication or conversation but rather your intellect and imagination. Nothing can be forced; the adornment nor the removal of an independent decision that can be the Niqab for many women. Mind you be local with your concerns from time to time, a woman in Afghanistan who is forced into wearing the veil is not the same as a woman in a veil across the street from you enjoying culinary artistry in a restaurant or in a cafe. Besides you'll never be in a position to speak from a Niqabi woman's point of view unless you've first hand experience (i.e: you've worn it yourself) either in supporting her or denouncing her. Let her speak for herself. Thank You.
    I understand the meaning of all the words you have used, but not in the order you have used them.
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    (Original post by AngloIndiaCrew)
    The very same people that would throw her out for her niqab would probably also deride her if she had a bad face or a weight problem. Typical ****ing cracker say they're all for freedom and tolerance but really incredibly judgemental and prickly. How about throwing out the legions of *****es in places like Nandos and Bella Italia who think its dignified to dine out in a short skirt and tits hanging out..gtfo.
    Firstly, what an utterly disgusting comment. If you represent the kind of culture that supports the wearing of the niqab, then it's very easy to see why people have such an aversion to it. Secondly, your first sentence contains a straw-man, and both the first and second contain a tu quoque fallacy. The last sentence, in all its deplorability, is also whataboutery that actually has very little relevance to the discussion.

    If this is really the best you can do, then please learn to know your place.

    As for anyone on this thread defending the niqab... this the kind of mindset you implicitly defend when defending the niqab. Of course there is an element of sadistic misogyny to it, not far from forcing a woman to wear a chastity belt.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I understand the meaning of all the words you have used, but not in the order you have used them.
    In plain English then, have you worn the veil?
    Have you interacted person to person with a woman in a Niqab?

    A minority of men FORCE women to wear the veil and yet a majority of women in CHOOSE to wear the veil, but you'd much rather focus on the minority of men then the majority of muslim women? goes to show how much significance you pay to women and their own decisions.

    The Niqab is how you choose to see it, same goes for any garment of clothing religious or not. If you see the Niqab as a symbol of oppression etc etc then the problem is with your own mentality than the Niqab itself.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I don't get how allowing this outfit helps these women. People don't live in compounds like in Saudi Arabia and are thus forced to interact with the rest of us. Women cannot be secluded 24/7 in the West, their "guardians" have to let them out at some point.

    Anyway, I refuse to accept their degenerate lifestyle.
    You are not obliged to accept it, you're not living their lifestyle. Grow up past your assumptions and actually have first hand interactions with them. The amount of fear and paranoia the West breeds is ridiculous!, half of you haven't even spoken to a woman in a Niqab and you apparently know all of her strife and struggles.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    Personal Beliefs should also be well within the rights to wear what they want without anyone judging them. Yes you can be a Muslim and not wear the niqaab however personal preferences leads to individuals choosing what to wear.
    This means a woman with a short skirt and clear cleavage can enter a restaurant in an Islamic country and not be judged too, right?
 
 
 
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