D&D Religion's "Ask About Sikhism" Thread Watch

Suave
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#221
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#221
(Original post by CHAMON)
In order to fathom what it all means you would need to go into in depth. I, just like you can pick out verses from the Vedas, Geeta, Quran, Bible etc etc and misconstrue it. This is a case of actually wanting to learn what this all trully means. Is that your intention....?
No offence, but from someone who (a) thinks the Vedas prohibit "idol worship" and (b) intentionally confuses himself between the RSS and HSS, I won't be taking much advice from such persons. Lack of credibility and all that, I'm sure you can understand.
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Suave
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#222
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#222
(Original post by BSJ)
Sikhs are not hindus, hindus are not Sikhs, End of argument.
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CHAMON
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(Original post by Suave)
No offence, but from someone who (a) thinks the Vedas prohibit "idol worship" and (b) intentionally confuses himself between the RSS and HSS, I won't be taking much advice from such persons. Lack of credibility and all that, I'm sure you can understand.
RSS is the HSS, dress it up how you want darlin'

As for the Vedas, one can't preach to those that think they are infallible. In futrure refrain from asking pathetic questions, it just shows you up.
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Suave
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(Original post by CHAMON)
RSS is the HSS, dress it up how you want darlin'
Case closed

As for the Vedas, one can't preach to those that think they are infallible. In futrure refrain from asking pathetic questions, it just shows you up.
Yet more irrationality. You should take some lessons from USingh, he's clearly up to the task of mature discussion.
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MrGuillotine
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(Original post by g_star_raw_1989)
Touch as in have an affair with.

That's what the direct quote states, never have relationships with Muslim women, not just in terms of adultery.
So its ok to have relationships with a Hindu or a Christian? If so, whats so special about Muslim women?
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USingh
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#226
I know your game Mr. RSS
you guys have been trying this for God know's how long, but rest assured that all attempts to engulf Sikhism into Hinduism have and always will fail

(Original post by Suave)
That's fair enough but the term Hindu....what did the Guru mean by it? Hindu isn't a term that was chosen by the followers of "Hinduism", it was labelled on us by the Persians. So when he says he isn't a "Hindu", what does it mean? Hindus believe in God, as do Sikhs. Hindus follow Dharma, as do Sikhs. The Vedas are said to establish Sanatana Dharma, which it seems Sikhs follow also (Dharma that is).
Hindu means followers of the main religion of India at that time, i.e. the followers of the hindu god's and those who place their faith in the vedas, purans, etc. The very fact that Guru Ji placed that alongside muslim (as well as in various other verses), doesn't take a genius to figure out what it means.
Even you are not denying that the term was in fact in use at the time, so you are just being unneccesarily picky.
What a ridiculous argument, "Sikhs believe in God and so do Hindus"- "OMG!!1 SIKH R HINDUZ!!!1"
And exactly where did you pull out that Sikhs believe in Sanatan Dharma? You read the word Dharma without bothering to do any further research and decided it was the same as the Hindu one?

Okay that's a nice quote, but to me that's just saying that Holy Scriptures always come second to experiencing God, singing and praising God comes above scriptures. That is also what Sanatana Dharma teaches, and even in the Gita there's a sloka where Krishna says when one has realised God then the Vedas are like a small reservoir compared to an endless ocean. So again, it seems like the two philosophies agree.
Well we all know exactly why you interpret that in that way. It is all too clear what it means, you simply have an agenda.
The original by Guru Gobind Singh Ji states directly, "ek na manyo"- this means "I do not place faith in one of them(the listed hindu and muslim scriptures).". To be honest I don't know what to say if you carry on after that. In fact as the Quran is also listed in this verse, by your logic Sikhs are now both Hindus and Muslims!

When you say "Guru", do you mean God?
Guru Nanak through to Guru Granth Sahib Ji (who we believe to all be the same light passed through these bodies and then to the eternal form of our king Guru Granth Sahib Ji).
It says Guru in the verse YOU quoted to me!!
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CHAMON
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(Original post by MrGuillotine)
So its ok to have relationships with a Hindu or a Christian? If so, whats so special about Muslim women?
I have no idea where he's taken this from, but I'm assuming from anti-muslim people.

In Sikhism, all people are equal, of anyfaith. We can marry anyone as long as they are accepting of the SIkh religion, but it's not compulsory, as it may be in other religions. But culturally, it's best to stay within your own faith
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Suave
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(Original post by USingh)
I know your game Mr. RSS
There was me thinking you were able to rationally debate
you guys have been trying this for God know's how long, but rest assured that all attempts to engulf Sikhism into Hinduism have and always will fail
"You guys"? Nice.

Hindu means followers of the main religion of India at that time, i.e. the followers of the hindu god's and those who place their faith in the vedas, purans, etc.
Followers of the "main religion of India at that time" doesn't necessarily mean the followers of the Vedas now does it? There are many who don't understand the significance of the Puranas and the Vedas and how they differ. You look at present times, when anyone is allowed to read the Vedas and you'll still find the majority not having read it, and believing "Hinduism" to mean polytheism, cow worshipping etc. I say this, because from what I've read so far, there is no real difference between what the Vedas say and what the Sikhs believe in.

The very fact that Guru Ji placed that alongside muslim (as well as in various other verses), doesn't take a genius to figure out what it means.
Even you are not denying that the term was in fact in use at the time, so you are just being unneccesarily picky.
What a ridiculous argument, "Sikhs believe in God and so do Hindus"- "OMG!!1 SIKH R HINDUZ!!!1"
Calm yourself young man.

And exactly where did you pull out that Sikhs believe in Sanatan Dharma? You read the word Dharma without bothering to do any further research and decided it was the same as the Hindu one?
You're lecturing me about "researching" when you confuse the RSS with the HSS? The irony indeed. Okay sir, what does "dharma" mean in Sikhism, and if it is different to Hinduism, why was the word taken in the first place from Hindu scriptures? Why not use a different word to overcome misunderstandings?

Guru Nanak through to Guru Granth Sahib Ji (who we believe to all be the same light passed through these bodies and then to the eternal form of our king Guru Granth Sahib Ji).
It says Guru in the verse YOU quoted to me!!
So you listen to the Guru? The verse says guru=wisdom of the vedas. Does that not say the Vedas teach the same thing as the gurus?
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CHAMON
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#229
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#229
(Original post by Suave)



So you listen to the Guru? The verse says guru=wisdom of the vedas. Does that not say the Vedas teach the same thing as the gurus?
The Shabad (Word) is the Guru, and the Guru is the Shabad (Word) - That Word is contained in the SGGS. Not in the Vedas for Sikhs.
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USingh
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#230
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#230
(Original post by MrGuillotine)
So its ok to have relationships with a Hindu or a Christian? If so, whats so special about Muslim women?
I think that g_star has probably got this info from an 18th century source (After the last human Guru had ascended), this was a time when Sikhism had been slightly muddled (it was later fixed thankfully) due to an era of almost constant warfare with mughals. It was at this time people's spirituality had lessened and that added to the fighting resulted in alot of weird stuff started cropping up, especially in regards to muslims.
However according to the Guru's teachings Extra-marital relations are not allowed, and marriage must only be to another Sikh. Towards non-sikhs, there is no differentiation made like Muslims are the worst or anything (you may see a different story in real life, but this is more to do with India vs. Pakistan, and is in contradiction with Sikhism).
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Amit92
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#231
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What have you guys got Against? Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh or call it HSS/RSS if you like?

We have alot off Sikhs,Jains,Bhuddists who are apart off the whole orginization & we see ourselves as ONE not individuals who follow 3 different religions but ONE!
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USingh
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#232
I apologise for any hurtful or offensive statements I may have made, but I do see attempts at trying to prove that my Guru's path is in actual fact the little henchmen of another religion, and will not deny that I find that incredibly offensive.

(Original post by Suave)
Followers of the "main religion of India at that time" doesn't necessarily mean the followers of the Vedas now does it? There are many who don't understand the significance of the Puranas and the Vedas and how they differ. You look at present times, when anyone is allowed to read the Vedas and you'll still find the majority not having read it, and believing "Hinduism" to mean "polytheism, cow worshipping etc. I say this, because from what I've read so far, there is no real difference between what the Vedas say and what the Sikhs believe in.
Again this is just nitpicking, as the verse talks of both hindus and muslims, it is only logical that Hindu means followers of Sanatan Dharma. Even you say that Hindu WAS in use, so why is it so hard for you to accept that the Guru would use it also? (really a rhetorical question though, isn't it?)


You're lecturing me about "researching" when you confuse the RSS with the HSS? The irony indeed. Okay sir, what does "dharma" mean in Sikhism, and if it is different to Hinduism, why was the word taken in the first place from Hindu scriptures? Why not use a different word to overcome misunderstandings?
Ok, so Hindu's are the only people that can use Sanskrit? rigghttt.
Anyway is it not called Sanatan Dharma? i.e. a certain type of Dharma, meaning that there can be other Dharmas?
In Sikhism the term is Dharam and means both righteousness, justice, etc. but also commonly simply means a faith or religion.

So you listen to the Guru? The verse says guru=wisdom of the vedas. Does that not say the Vedas teach the same thing as the gurus?
No it does not. I thought I already had explained the meaning of that verse.
Ill post it once more for your benefit
"In short, to answer the question about this line from Jap Ji Sahib you have quoted, it is to say that to a Sikh, the Guru fulfills all of those roles. Pre-sikhism in India people would worship one god for one thing, another for something else, but a Sikh needs only his Guru for everything. So in actual fact that line further removes Sikhs from all other faiths!"

This following quote from Guru Gobind Singh Ji to his Sikhs is crystal clear:
"As long as the Khalsa (sikhs) remain distinct, I will always give them my support.
When they start following the ways of the Brahmins (i.e. the heads of Hinduism) I will not come to their aid"

This was a clear instruction to Sikhs to stay seperate from all other religions.
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USingh
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#233
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#233
(Original post by Amit92)
What have you guys got Against? Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh or call it HSS/RSS if you like?

We have alot off Sikhs,Jains,Bhuddists who are apart off the whole orginization & we see ourselves as ONE not individuals who follow 3 different religions but ONE!
Well I am sorry but all those "sikhs" who go there are simply Sikhs in name.
Have you bothered reading any of this thread?
We believe in good will to all and are taught to see God's light in all, all of us as members of the brotherhood of mankind.
However,our exact problem is that the distinctness of our faith is being challenged. We choose not to be part of the Hindu faith therefore we are not.
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Suave
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#234
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#234
(Original post by USingh)
I apologise for any hurtful or offensive statements I may have made, but I do see attempts at trying to prove that my Guru's path is in actual fact the little henchmen of another religion, and will not deny that I find that incredibly offensive.
You're looking at it from the wrong angle. It's not an attempt that your Guru's path is "the little henchmen of another religion", but it's showing how we all are part of essentially the same philosophy and way of life. What you think is different, I see it as just the same with no evidence to suggest otherwise. Anyone can say "Sikhism is completely different to Hinduism", but without evidence, a mere assertion means nothing. Don'g get emotionally involved in this discussion, look at it from a rational and objective stance. If you are unable to do that then it's best to stop after this post.

Again this is just nitpicking, as the verse talks of both hindus and muslims, it is only logical that Hindu means followers of Sanatan Dharma. Even you say that Hindu WAS in use, so why is it so hard for you to accept that the Guru would use it also? (really a rhetorical question though, isn't it?)
Look, put it this way, in what ways do Sikhs differ from those who follow the Vedas? Simple question.

Ok, so Hindu's are the only people that can use Sanskrit? rigghttt.
Anyway is it not called Sanatan Dharma? i.e. a certain type of Dharma, meaning that there can be other Dharmas?
In Sikhism the term is Dharam and means both righteousness, justice, etc. but also commonly simply means a faith or religion.
Ah, now I see a clear misunderstanding. "Sanatana" just means "eternal". Dharma in Hinduism is exactly how you use it in a Sikhism context. There are no other Dharmas; there is only one Dharma.

No it does not. I thought I already had explained the meaning of that verse.
Ill post it once more for your benefit
"In short, to answer the question about this line from Jap Ji Sahib you have quoted, it is to say that to a Sikh, the Guru fulfills all of those roles. Pre-sikhism in India people would worship one god for one thing, another for something else, but a Sikh needs only his Guru for everything. So in actual fact that line further removes Sikhs from all other faiths!"
I don't see this contradicting Vedic teachings at all. If the Guru teaches the same thing as the Vedas, then whether you use the Vedas or you learn from the Guru, you're learning the same thing. Is this not correct?

This following quote from Guru Gobind Singh Ji to his Sikhs is crystal clear:
"As long as the Khalsa (sikhs) remain distinct, I will always give them my support.
When they start following the ways of the Brahmins (i.e. the heads of Hinduism) I will not come to their aid"

This was a clear instruction to Sikhs to stay seperate from all other religions.
I'll repeat the question then. How do the Vedic teachings and Sikhism differ?
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USingh
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#235
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(Original post by Suave)
Look, put it this way, in what ways do Sikhs differ from those who follow the Vedas? Simple question.
Perhaps the fact that we are followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji? The fact that the Guru tells us to place our faith in him alone and worship one eternal undying God without any forms, who is different from all the hindu gods and in no way are these gods a form of his. The fact that we believe that Guru Nanak alone will lead us to merger with God in Sachkhand (a realm found only in Sikhism), the Guru teaches us his unique way of meditating on God, gives us Gurbani which (we believe) is direct from God. Our physical symbols (eg. 5 ks and more), our daily prayers, etc. etc.


Ah, now I see a clear misunderstanding. "Sanatana" just means "eternal". Dharma in Hinduism is exactly how you use it in a Sikhism context. There are no other Dharmas; there is only one Dharma.
According to Hinduism there is only one dharma. In Sikh vocab Dharam just means religion, Hinduism is A Dharam, Christianity is A Dharam, Islam is A Dharam, Sikhism is A Dharam. Clear enough?

I don't see this contradicting Vedic teachings at all. If the Guru teaches the same thing as the Vedas, then whether you use the Vedas or you learn from the Guru, you're learning the same thing. Is this not correct?
I'm not sure if you are just pretending or genuinely don't understand. What's so hard to get? People would go to the Vedas for spiritual fulfillment, but a Sikh does not go to the Vedas for spiritual fulfillment a Sikh goes to the Guru, obviously the fact that the Guru has written this tells us that he does not want us to learn from the vedas- telling us that their is something different being taught.
Furthermore the difference between the Vedas and the Guru is that Gurbani states on many occasions that the Vedas do not know God's limit, in Sikhism the Guru and God are one, so obviously thats a big difference.
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Amit92
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#236
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(Original post by USingh)
Well I am sorry but all those "sikhs" who go there are simply Sikhs in name.
Have you bothered reading any of this thread?
We believe in good will to all and are taught to see God's light in all, all of us as members of the brotherhood of mankind.
However,our exact problem is that the distinctness of our faith is being challenged. We choose not to be part of the Hindu faith therefore we are not.
Well you don't know how many Sikhs there in HSS from all over UK :/

I understand, You Sikhs shouldbe able to have freedom to express your own religion and not see it being a part off another religion
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Suave
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(Original post by USingh)
Perhaps the fact that we are followers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji? The fact that the Guru tells us to place our faith in him alone and worship one eternal undying God without any forms, who is different from all the hindu gods and in no way are these gods a form of his. The fact that we believe that Guru Nanak alone will lead us to merger with God in Sachkhand (a realm found only in Sikhism), the Guru teaches us his unique way of meditating on God, gives us Gurbani which (we believe) is direct from God. Our physical symbols (eg. 5 ks and more), our daily prayers, etc. etc.



According to Hinduism there is only one dharma. In Sikh vocab Dharam just means religion, Hinduism is A Dharam, Christianity is A Dharam, Islam is A Dharam, Sikhism is A Dharam. Clear enough?


I'm not sure if you are just pretending or genuinely don't understand. What's so hard to get? People would go to the Veda's for spiritual fulfillment, but a Sikh does not go to the Veda's for spiritual fulfillment a Sikh goes to the Guru, obviously the fact that the Guru has written this tells us that he does not want us to learn from the vedas- telling us that their is something different being taught.
Furthermore the difference between the Vedas and the Guru is that Gurbani states on many occasions that the Vedas do not know God's limit, in Sikhism the Guru and God are one, so obviously thats a big difference.
We're clearly not going to agree on this. You believe what you believe about this issue, I'll believe what I believe about it and let's leave it at that.
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g_star_raw_1989
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(Original post by MrGuillotine)
So its ok to have relationships with a Hindu or a Christian? If so, whats so special about Muslim women?
Look it up, it's a quote from a Guru.
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SolInvictus
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#239
Can anyone here give me a good recipe for Chicken Makhani?
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CHAMON
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(Original post by Amit92)
What have you guys got Against? Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh or call it HSS/RSS if you like?

We have alot off Sikhs,Jains,Bhuddists who are apart off the whole orginization & we see ourselves as ONE not individuals who follow 3 different religions but ONE!
Thier activites in India, distorting the SGGS and trying to make out Sikhs are Hindus (just like the constuition states Sikhs are Hindus with unshorn hair) all this incorrect. The setting upf deras and so called holy babas to lure the weak and uneducated away from Sikhism. The list goes on. Look last week a sikh killed in bombay by the so called gurmeet ram raheem supported by the indian gov(funded) the list goes on. RSS are banned here, or Sikh and Muslim groups have united to have them banned as they are supporters of nazism as are Shiv Sena.

Also, we are not one religion. It's like announcing to the Christians, you're all Jews because Jesus was a jew! Now, enough with the tripe, people with non-hindu agendas want to learn about Sikhism You stick to your hindu thread!
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