Should women earn as much as men? Watch

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#221
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#221
(Original post by EvilSheep)
That's not what women want though.. The only thing we eant, is that if your girlfriend did the same job, then she should get the same rewards.
And you get that so STFU!
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~Hazzle*
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#222
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(Original post by Elipsis)
There is no pay difference, put the excuse down. If women worked the same long hours, in the same danger etc. Then they would be paid more. As it stands women favour job flexibility and being in the same part of the country over money, where as men don't. There is no pay gap between like for like employment, unless of course you take into account that if a woman did exactly the same job as men they would be paid 127% of the mans pay... You can't claim you don't have the same opportunities either, there are more women in university ffs.
Yes there is a difference, there is evidence of a difference, I know various women where they have more experience and are being paid less than their male counterparts doing the same job. I actually meant, job opportunities specifically, in many job areas men are favoured, especially manual jobs, you might say men will do them better, but not necessarily.
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WithFlyingColours
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#223
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That's not what women want though.. The only thing we eant, is that if your girlfriend did the same job, then she should get the same rewards.
And she would. It just so happens that women don't find themselves in jobs like that. Can you understand what we're saying? There is no pay gap between males and females who do the same job ceteris paribus. It's a fallacy.
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(Original post by Jelkin)
I hate it when people attribute the name of feminism to sexism. It's called "feminism" because when it started, it was the women who were oppressed, so it concentrated on women's rights because they had so few in comparison to men. The name has stayed the same because, well, it has. I don't see why the name is so important. I consider myself a feminist but I think later retirement for men and bias in divorce courts is wrong. Equally, it annoys me when people insist on using "chairperson" instead of "chairman", as though there's something inherently sexist with the word "chairman".
Feminism is sexist because you've chosen a sides rights to pick up and champion. In our current society there is no need for feminism to exist in any form, mens and womens inequalities are equal and both sides need their rights championed equally otherwise the balance will go again. If you really cared about equality you would be egalitarian, instead of picking a side to stand on.
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Jelkin
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#225
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#225
(Original post by WithFlyingColours)
Which you get. How many times?
Um, well I was answering the thread title. Calm down. Besides, there is not and probably cannot be a conclusive study that claims that pay is or is not "equal" (by which I mean someone working a job gets their wage irrespective of gender), because of many reasons already stated, such as women working less and men aiming for higher stress and higher paid jobs.
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EvilSheep
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#226
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#226
(Original post by Elipsis)
And you get that so STFU!
Well, then what is this thread about then?? What are we discussing??
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(Original post by ~Hazzle*)
Yes there is a difference, there is evidence of a difference, I know various women where they have more experience and are being paid less than their male counterparts doing the same job. I actually meant, job opportunities specifically, in many job areas men are favoured, especially manual jobs, you might say men will do them better, but not necessarily.
There is evidence that men are getting paid more overall but this is because they work longer hours, in more danger, and don't take time off to look after children. As I said if women worked like for like they would be paid more than men, they just don't.
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onthejubileeline
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#228
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Bloody feminism, eh? Women = Get back in the kitchen!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously? Go back to the 1950s, mate.
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EvilSheep
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#229
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(Original post by WithFlyingColours)
And she would. It just so happens that women don't find themselves in jobs like that. Can you understand what we're saying? There is no pay gap between males and females who do the same job ceteris paribus. It's a fallacy.

If she would, it's fine. But the reason there has been so much fuss about this all, is that it isn't always the case. That's all I'm saying.
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tumtetum
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#230
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#230
http://msn.careerbuilder.co.uk/UK/Cu...268733245-JJ-5

I just opened a new internet page and this was MSNs leading piece
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Bornstubborn
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#231
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#231
(Original post by Jelkin)
No, but if she took the same job as you she should be paid the same, and if you switch jobs the wage difference should be the same as it is now.
She would not work my job!

This is the basis of the problem. There are a lot of jobs that have a high risk factor or include work that women wont do that are highly paid. When you compare women and mens earnings the women appear to be making a lot less than the men and commentators will claim this is a wage gap.

I(f women were to get the same pay then it would not be equal.

I udnerstand you girls are claiming you want the same money for the same work, but the notion of a wage gap is based on the notion men are just earning more money and ignoring why they are earning more money.
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Jelkin
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#232
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(Original post by Elipsis)
Feminism is sexist because you've chosen a sides rights to pick up and champion. In our current society there is no need for feminism to exist in any form, mens and womens inequalities are equal and both sides need their rights championed equally otherwise the balance will go again. If you really cared about equality you would be egalitarian, instead of picking a side to stand on.
You seem not to have read my post. Do you think the word "chairman" is sexist? It's just a word, ffs. Feminism is about equal rights for women, which because of the word "equal" also means equality for men (apart from for certain radical feminists who make everyone hate feminism, but I can't be bothered to go into them).

EDIT: I know, I know about that study that said women would get more in the same job and the same hours. This too would be wrong. However, that's just one study. It's not the be all and end all. Other studies claim the opposite. I couldn't say which is correct; I'm merely saying that women deserve the same rewards for the same work.
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WithFlyingColours
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#233
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Well, then what is this thread about then?? What are we discussing??
We are discussing the fallacy of inequal pay as shoved down our throats by the same kind of TV channel that brings us other feminist programmes such as loose women.
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Misogynist
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#234
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#234
(Original post by imtired)
The arguments are that it's not their fault, i'm not saying whether they are better or not at doing a job (this is what you've said - usually), but should disabled people earn less because they aren't able to do it as well? This is what the discussion is, is this equality, or does equality disregard who you are?
I think they shouldn't earn less, but should have specific jobs which wouldn't be affected by their disability as much. As in, A person with a mental disorder shouldn't be a doctor, and a person with motor neurone disease shouldn't be a fitness coach. Which is intrinsically what I'm saying about women too.

Your 'analogy' of sorts involving women and disabled people sort of indicates you think women are disabled. Fine, let's work with that idea.

If women are 'disabled' in certain fields due to their natural evolutionary characteristics, is it fair that they take the place of men in such professions and get an equal pay doing the job worse than a man? (Let's assume that the man does the job better. I'm saying they usually do because they do! It's not something I'm making up. The most powerful people in the world are men. Besides, I'm talking about professions in which men have an obvious edge.)
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~Hazzle*
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#235
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(Original post by Elipsis)
There is evidence that men are getting paid more overall but this is because they work longer hours, in more danger, and don't take time off to look after children. As I said if women worked like for like they would be paid more than men, they just don't.
Longer hours? Not necessarily, that depends on the job, women work full-time 9-5 jobs too. Okay I'm going to leave this thread, because I don't want to get into an argument :rolleyes:.
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#236
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(Original post by Jelkin)
You seem not to have read my post. Do you think the word "chairman" is sexist? It's just a word, ffs. Feminism is about equal rights for women, which because of the word "equal" also means equality for men (apart from for certain radical feminists who make everyone hate feminism, but I can't be bothered to go into them).
Definitions of feminist on the Web:
  • of or relating to or advocating equal rights for women; "feminist critique"
  • a supporter of feminism
    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
  • Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and equal rights for women.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist
Definitions of egalitarian on the Web:
Full political and social equality for all.
www.saskschools.ca/curr_content/native30/glossary.html

As I actually believe in equality I think I will term myself egalatarian thanks. Feminism doesn't equal for equality, it equals equality for women, not both.
Show me these other studies if they exist?
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#237
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(Original post by ~Hazzle*)
Longer hours? Not necessarily, that depends on the job, women work full-time 9-5 jobs too. Okay I'm going to leave this thread, because I don't want to get into an argument :rolleyes:.
There is proof a couple of pages back if you'd care to look. I'm not talking 9-5 jobs here, i'm talking 60-80 hour weeks, which women are far far less likely to take up.
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EvilSheep
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#238
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
She would not work my job!

This is the basis of the problem. There are a lot of jobs that have a high risk factor or include work that women wont do that are highly paid. When you compare women and mens earnings the women appear to be making a lot less than the men and commentators will claim this is a wage gap.

I(f women were to get the same pay then it would not be equal.

I udnerstand you girls are claiming you want the same money for the same work, but the notion of a wage gap is based on the notion men are just earning more money and ignoring why they are earning more money.
"And the gap is also largely dependent upon the industry you are employed. Male managers working in the food and drink sector, for example, will earn an average 46% more than their female counterparts, closely followed by the pensions and insurance sector where the gap stands at 43.2%. "

Taken from here: http://msn.careerbuilder.co.uk/UK/Cu...268733245-JJ-5
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WithFlyingColours
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#239
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I just opened a new internet page and this was MSNs leading piece
Exactly the sort of crap you see in the tabloids and on the BBC. It pays to be a man because of everything men are and everything we are willing to do as it is part of our make up to be the provider for our family.

If women did the same jobs as men, they would get paid 127% of a men's wage. FACT.
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Jelkin
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#240
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(Original post by Elipsis)
Definitions of feminist on the Web:
  • of or relating to or advocating equal rights for women; "feminist critique"
  • a supporter of feminism
    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
  • Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and equal rights for women.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist
Definitions of egalitarian on the Web:
Full political and social equality for all.
www.saskschools.ca/curr_content/native30/glossary.html

As I actually believe in equality I think I will term myself egalatarian thanks. Feminism doesn't equal for equality, it equals equality for women, not both.
Show me these other studies if they exist?
Yes, but equal is the key word. So if women have equal rights to men, women's rights = men's rights. So they are the same. It's just that feminism was founded on the idea that women have fewer rights than men, so yes, it focused on women's rights being equal to men's rights. Not better. Equal.
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