The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Aph
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#2421
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#2421
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
When people say things like they oppose private property I feel horrifically centrist. I mean, I support regulations, social housing and ideas like housing co-ops, but...
Well why should one person have total control over land that no one person has any meaningful claim over. I mean one person just came around a few hundred years ago and claimed the land with no real right to do so.... Plus officially the uk is all the private property of the queen right now anyway:erm: we are just long term tenants.
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Aph
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#2422
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#2422
(Original post by The Financier)
I am. is it a star trek thing? Cause I've never watched it...

Individuality's brilliant. Without it how do we get new ideas? Society would not progress if you make everyone the same...it takes people who think differently for innovation to happen.

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:eek:yes it is!!! They are one of the most famous Star Trek villains of all time.

logic... And the concept is hard to grasp. Basically we are all indaviduals with our own thoughts but there is an underlying hive mind as well. Does that make sense?
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Blue Meltwater
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#2423
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#2423
(Original post by Aph)
Well why should one person have total control over land that no one person has any meaningful claim over. I mean one person just came around a few hundred years ago and claimed the land with no real right to do so.... Plus officially the uk is all the private property of the queen right now anyway:erm: we are just long term tenants.
Largely because of the social and economic security private ownership brings. I appreciate this is confining myself to thinking within the status quo, but given I don't see a massive economic restructuring happening anytime soon I don't think this fact will change.

And obviously, I oppose people owning ridiculously high numbers of properties - I'd probably want to cap the number of properties someone can own.
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Aph
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#2424
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#2424
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
Largely because of the social and economic security private ownership brings. I appreciate this is confining myself to thinking within the status quo, but given I don't see a massive economic restructuring happening anytime soon I don't think this fact will change.

And obviously, I oppose people owning ridiculously high numbers of properties - I'd probably want to cap the number of properties someone can own.
But if we are talking about houses then you could still have 'your own' house but it just doesn't belong to you when you die... Again you are a long term tenant so can move out if you wanted and you have an address but you just can't claim everything on that land as yours.
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adam9317
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#2425
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#2425
We would like to officially welcome her royal highness back to her throne!
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TeeEff
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#2426
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#2426
(Original post by Aph)
logic... And the concept is hard to grasp. Basically we are all indaviduals with our own thoughts but there is an underlying hive mind as well. Does that make sense?
So it's more of a means of ensuring everyone receives the same amount of information? Sounds a lot like the internet
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RayApparently
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#2427
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#2427
(Original post by adam9317)
We would like to officially welcome her royal highness back to her throne!
Let's also raise our glasses in welcoming about £60 billion more debt per year...
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Aph
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#2428
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#2428
The monarchy will be abolished this time next month!!!
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RayApparently
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#2429
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#2429
Actually severely irritated the Repeal has passed... The... 'UK' is now a lot suckier.
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Aph
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#2430
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#2430
(Original post by The Financier)
So it's more of a means of ensuring everyone receives the same amount of information? Sounds a lot like the internet
Yes, it's the internet which is implanted in your brain basically.
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Life_peer
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#2431
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#2431


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PetrosAC
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#2432
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#2432
(Original post by RayApparently)
Actually severely irritated the Repeal has passed... The... 'UK' is now a lot suckier.
Hear Hear

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TeeEff
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#2433
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#2433
(Original post by Aph)
Yes, it's the internet which is implanted in your brain basically.
Then won't trying to increase worldwide access to the internet a la Facebook Internet.Org emulate its effect? I'm sceptical it will do anything to significantly boost the aims of Communism. I can certainly agree that we're more likely to have people working together (crowd-funding is an excellent example which can help businesses get alternative financing) when we have access to a large network, but that isn't something that is exclusive to communism as it equally helps a Capitalist setting.
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RayApparently
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#2434
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#2434
(Original post by mobbsy91)
EDIT: :facepalm: I get it!!! Haha, we make enough money in this bar as it is
I'll be nominating you for Drunkard of the Commons Bar, a great honour. Win and you'll follow in the footsteps of heroes like teh_France.
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Aph
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#2435
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#2435
(Original post by The Financier)
Then won't trying to increase worldwide access to the internet a la Facebook Internet.Org emulate its effect? I'm sceptical it will do anything to significantly boost the aims of Communism. I can certainly agree that we're more likely to have people working together (crowd-funding is an excellent example which can help businesses get alternative financing) when we have access to a large network, but that isn't something that is exclusive to communism as it equally helps a Capitalist setting.
It's a really hard concept to imagine because it is also so much more. Imagine every single person talking to every single other person all at once. You all have a individual mind but at the same time you also have a colective mind telling you what to do...
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RayApparently
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#2436
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#2436
Good Lord, we're going to have MHoC austerity now! :nooo:
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James Milibanter
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#2437
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#2437
(Original post by RayApparently)
Good Lord, we're going to have MHoC austerity now! :nooo:
:nooo:
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Birchington
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#2438
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#2438
I remember the last reset having a broadly positive effect on activity and legislation output. I'm hopeful the passing of the 2015 Repeal will lead to some good debates after the election.
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Rakas21
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#2439
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#2439
(Original post by RayApparently)
Abundance! That's just the word I was looking for. The markets will get us to the point where we don't need them. Its positively marxist.

I don't think private ownership will disappear either. At least not completely.
Well Marx believed that eventually capitalism would produce great things but that inequality would force a dictatorship of the proletariat to occur with a command economy and then managed transition to communism. This i suppose does have a similar end but the circumstances are very different. In this scenario the ability to create abundance will essentially drop the commodity costs (and by extension production costs) to near zero which will create deflation, the end result being that we'd probably move to some kind of credit based system i imagine (you'd get what resources you need and just rack up points on a credit card as a means of identifying who desires what). Yeah, private ownership would still remain though but capitalism in the modern sense would have done its job.

The reason i'm not sold on Aph's vision of a united species is that it's entirely possible that a company doing this would find it hard to make profit since the cost of the commodity they supply would fall infinitely (since the production capacity of asteroids for most metals is near infinite) which makes it entirely possible that a state would essentially operate its own space mining company and absorb the loss via taxes or funny accounting. This however also means that such a state could keep the resources they mine to themselves gaining a massive production cost advantage for the goods they export. Meanwhile, African countries for example don't have the money or technology to do this so the planet still stays unequal until abolition of currency in its current form. The USA for example has no need to provide resources to Kenya when limited competition in space mining draws companies wanting to produce to them (i imagine there's a massive first mover advantage). Plus on top of that, we can be a bit xenophobic (not least around religion and some cultural aspects).

(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
When people say things like they oppose private property I feel horrifically centrist. I mean, I support regulations, social housing and ideas like housing co-ops, but...
Private property rights that are defined and enforced are the bedrock of a market economy. By knowing that you own the shop and the product you produce there is a massive incentive to produce for your own gain.

Aph while generally libertarian (co-ops) also seems quite happy to oversee a command economy (USSR, Mao's China) and ergo has no need for private property rights because the state will decide and create what the people need, rather than a market based on peoples wants.
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Rakas21
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#2440
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#2440
(Original post by The Financier)
So it's more of a means of ensuring everyone receives the same amount of information? Sounds a lot like the internet
What Aph does not mention is that with 7 billion opinions you'd need 1 person to bring order to chaos. It's perfect equality with a single dictator.

(Original post by Birchington)
I remember the last reset having a broadly positive effect on activity and legislation output. I'm hopeful the passing of the 2015 Repeal will lead to some good debates after the election.
The 13th parliament was rubbish and the 14th parliament saw the Mhoc go without posts for upto 3 weeks (the quietest parliament since the 8th - around 3 years earlier). Activity was high in the 15th but the vast majority of bills could have gone through without repealing a single thing, indeed i'd say the bill and motion challenge plus having competitive active leaders were a far bigger factor.

Make no bones, this is a mistake and you'll still be complaining about activity a year from now.
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