Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

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Kj91
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#2481
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#2481
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Ah the mythical labour for independence movement made up of members of the SNP posing as members of the Labour Party.

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/250

but you seem to have forgotten about the 40% of SNP voters who don't support seperation.
Why can't fellow Yes campaigners work together though. Alastair Darling addressed the Tory conference for the Union.

"Labour MP Alistair Darling has received a standing ovation from the Conservative Party faithful at the launch of a new campaign to keep the British armed forces together.

Mr Darling, chairman of the pro-UK Better Together campaign, launched Forces Together at the Tory conference in Stirling on Saturday.

One Tory delegate asked if Mr Darling's appearance at conference has been recorded so it can be distributed to schools
http://news.stv.tv/stirling-central/...ry-conference/

The Better Together campaign doctored those photos and removed the names.
The pro-British Union ‘Better Together’ campaign has been caught doctoring a photo and claiming Ayrshire SNP activists were masquerading as members of pressure group ‘Labour for Independence’.

the3towns understands the ‘Labour for Independence’ group of Labour Party activists has been very successful in persuading ordinary Labour voters to abandon the party’s support for the Union and, instead, embrace the cause of Scottish independence. As a result, ‘Better Together’ last week attempted to discredit the group by asserting its members were not genuine Labour activists, arguing it had ‘proof’ the body was simply an SNP front.

As ‘evidence’ of its assertion, ‘Better Together’ published the above photo, which it claimed showed ‘Labour for Independence’ activists who were really members of the SNP.

However, the photo was actually taken at an Ayrshire ‘Yes Scotland’ stall in Kilmarnock. ‘Yes Scotland‘ is the umbrella group that brings together all strands of the pro-independence movement, and the Kilmarnock event was attended by activists from the SNP, the Scottish Socialist Party and the Greens, alongside non-aligned individuals and members of ‘Labour for Independence’. It just happened that one photo was taken with a ‘Labour for Independence’ banner in the background.

The photo was originally published on the Twitter account of pro-independence activist Graham Barton, who named the people in the photo and clearly stated they were SNP members. But, when ‘Better Together’ used the photo, it removed the wording and alleged that the people in the photo were claiming to be members of ‘Labour for Independence’, when they were actually SNP activists.

One of the people in the photo is Cllr Douglas Reid, SNP Leader of East Ayrshire Council, a man hardly likely to present himself as a Labour Party member.

Better Together’s doctoring of the photo and misrepresentation of the people in it were subsequently picked-up and used by mainstream media outlets, including the BBC and Daily Record.

However, once the original photo and wording were revealed, it became clear Better Together had resorted to ‘dirty tricks’ by altering the post in an attempt to undermine the work of ‘Labour for Independence’.

http://the3towns-archive.blogspot.co.uk/
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Jack Andrea
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#2482
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#2482
Bad thing. Breaking the Union that is between Scotland and England/Northern Ireland/Wales is breaking over 300 years of history and tradition and could foresee the end of the United Kingdom as a sovereign state replace by smaller countries. We are better together!


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L i b
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#2483
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#2483
(Original post by Kj91)
Why can't fellow Yes campaigners work together though. Alastair Darling addressed the Tory conference for the Union.

"Labour MP Alistair Darling has received a standing ovation from the Conservative Party faithful at the launch of a new campaign to keep the British armed forces together.

Mr Darling, chairman of the pro-UK Better Together campaign, launched Forces Together at the Tory conference in Stirling on Saturday.

One Tory delegate asked if Mr Darling's appearance at conference has been recorded so it can be distributed to schools
http://news.stv.tv/stirling-central/...ry-conference/
Actually, Darling spoke at a fringe event, not to conference. At a party conference, there are numerous fringe events held by external organisations. Either way, Al Darling has never campaigned for a Tory organisation. You would never see him giving out Conservative Friends of the Union leaflets, just as you will never see Ruth Davidson handing out United With Labour leaflets. Moreover, since these organisations actually have numerous real members, they can distribute their own materials perfectly well.

The reason SNP people gave out "Labour for Independence" leaflets is that it is a fake front organisation and always has been. They are using it to attack the Labour Party.

The Better Together campaign doctored those photos and removed the names.
The pro-British Union ‘Better Together’ campaign has been caught doctoring a photo and claiming Ayrshire SNP activists were masquerading as members of pressure group ‘Labour for Independence’.
An absolute lie. I've seen what these idiots produced to back up that claim: it was a facebook page, with names tagged on it. Not part of the image at all, and not even necessarily the original or only source of the image. Lies, not even addressing the numerous photographs featuring SNP members actively leafleting and supporting this pretend organisation.
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L i b
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#2484
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#2484
(Original post by arson_fire)
Hopefully it will put the issue to rest one way or another for a generation.

Although I could see the SNP taking the EU approach of keeping asking the question until they get the "correct" result.
Luckily the SNP don't have that option, even if they secured a majority in the Scottish Parliament. The UK legislation devolving the right to have a referendum on Scottish independence expires at the end of 2014. At that point, the Scottish Parliament loses the legal power to hold one.
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Kj91
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#2485
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#2485
Lib,With regards to your comment about Alastair Darling never giving out 'Conservative Friends of the Union Leaflets' Could he not if he wanted to though?. As shown below.Since friends of the Union is not binding to support of the Conservative party. Why not the same stance with the Yes campaign?
Attached files
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ihateocr
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#2486
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#2486
(Original post by Solarstorm)
'Enough educated Scots'

I am sick of hearing things like that in this debate and especially from the same people who would say that the nats are chauvinistic and jingoistic.

"Most Scots are dumb as ****, but hopefully enough of them are smart enough to realize there is no benefit of independence."

Really do you hate Scots or just hate people in general?

If you disagree with a persons political opinion or even an entire nations democratic choice are you prepared to tarnish them all as 'uneducated'?

If the Scots vote yes to independence then will they forever in your eyes be regarded as a despicable, worthless, stupid and uneducated people.

We can think for ourselves you know. Some of us don't buy the SNP's arguments nor the unionists 'better together' propaganda, but some people can't view this debate in any other way than 1/0 unionist or 1/0 nationalist and have to resort to ridiculous name calling of those they don't agree with such as 'uneducated'.
If you had take the time to properly read my argument, you would have understood that my point was not that Scottish independence is what I consider to be the problem.Yet, in fact, the lack of devolution of an English parliamentary system which gives more localised constituencies a legislative power. As I'm sure you probably know, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MP's have the right to vote on acts of parliament affecting English citizens yet English MP's have no power in these areas.

Don't start with outrageous claims that I think all Scots want the SNP to win, many support the independence movement, but have become disenfranchised with the SNP after successive years of failures to meet targets. I come from Yorkshire which like Scotland has a very weak Conservative party following, yet both areas are governed by a conservative government.Only by sticking together do we have any basis to create a strong enough economic standpoint to have some influence in this ever increasingly globalized world. My argument is entirely based on factors of quality of life (money, health, education) and nothing to do with interests of pride and national identity. This perpetuated anti-English attitude that some Scots have contributes nothing to the world and only creates dumb-founded weak counter-arguments which present no real incentive to benefit from independence.

Give me ****, but what real argument can you give that independence has any benefit that isn't outweighed by a lesser counter-argument?
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MatureStudent36
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#2487
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#2487
(Original post by L i b)
An absolute lie. I've seen what these idiots produced to back up that claim: it was a facebook page, with names tagged on it. Not part of the image at all, and not even necessarily the original or only source of the image. Lies, not even addressing the numerous photographs featuring SNP members actively leafleting and supporting this pretend organisation.
So we have a party claiming to want to have a positive campaign, criticising anybody who criticises their made up claims as being negative, whilst getting its supporters to conduct personal attacks and spread lies, not spin, but lies, at the same time.

Spectacular.
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cowsforsale
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#2488
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#2488
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Ah the mythical labour for independence movement made up of members of the SNP posing as members of the Labour Party.

http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/250

but you seem to have forgotten about the 40% of SNP voters who don't support seperation.
Tsk tsk.

You can do better than that..

Wonder why they chose a photoshopped picture, instead of these other ones.

(Original post by Jack Andrea)
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Definitely better together, meanwhile..

Also,you can be Scottish and British, as you can be English, Welsh or Nothern Irish and British. Being British requires being in the British Isles..
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MatureStudent36
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#2489
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#2489
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Tsk tsk.

You can do better than that..

Wonder why they chose a photoshopped picture, instead of these other ones.



Definitely better together, meanwhile..

Also,you can be Scottish and British, as you can be English, Welsh or Nothern Irish and British. Being British requires being in the British Isles..
You must be working for the SNP with pushing out that. Are you seriously accusing one political grouping Photoshopping in pictures of SNP Councillors posing as members of Labour for independence?

I especially like your British as being defined as living on the British Isles. I always tend to take it as backed by pound sterling.

It's great news on the export front though. I guess all of those lovely British Embassies that we have access to have helped along the way. It's also a good indication that we're not really being held back as much as Mr Salmond likes to make out. Although I'm still waiting for the Saudi Arabia of Renewables to come along.


EDIT. With 50% of the vote and support for seperation hovering between 30 to 35%, have you identified the 30 to 40% of people who voted for the SNP who aren't backing their original policy? Do we have an SNP for staying in the Union movement.
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Wilder Airs
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#2490
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#2490
Bad, very bad - for all of us, Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Especially if they manage to wing the rights to the North Sea fossil fuel blocks - the cost of fuel in the UK would most likely sky rocket, and they wouldn't be much better, given that the North Sea reserves aren't exactly plentiful any more as it is.
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MatureStudent36
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#2491
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#2491
Interesting news article how the YeSNP campaign need to win over 2/3 of undecided voters yet sill have the problem that "the yes vote was “less solid” than the no vote, with “proportionally more yes voters saying ‘I might change my mind’ than no voters”.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...poll-1-3045382

It does appear however that "also identified a correlation between support for independence and those living in deprived areas........“Support for independence is mainly higher, so at 50% or more, in neighbourhoods across the central belt, some up in Aberdeen and in other pockets of the country,”

So I see that someof the most vulnerable people have fallen for the attempts to buy votes wth promise of a more financially soud future.

It's just a pity that the SNP don't believe that behind closed doors.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf
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MatureStudent36
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#2492
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(Original post by Wilder Airs)
Bad, very bad - for all of us, Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Especially if they manage to wing the rights to the North Sea fossil fuel blocks - the cost of fuel in the UK would most likely sky rocket, and they wouldn't be much better, given that the North Sea reserves aren't exactly plentiful any more as it is.
You do realise that having access to North Sea Oil doesn't actually change the cost of it in the UK? If that were the case we'd actually have some of the lowest fuel prices in Europe, but we actually have some of the most expensive.

The SNP seems to have forgotten as well that 12 of the 13 oil refineries in the UK aren't in Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...United_Kingdom
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Good bloke
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#2493
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
Being British requires being in the British Isles.
You obviously haven't spoke to someone who lives in Gibraltar, the Falklands or the Channel islands. Or the Republic of Ireland, which is in the British Isles but isn't British.
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Psyk
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(Original post by Good bloke)
You obviously haven't spoke to someone who lives in Gibraltar, the Falklands or the Channel islands. Or the Republic of Ireland, which is in the British Isles but isn't British.
But most people in the Republic of Ireland would dispute that it is in the British Isles (I'm not taking any side on that argument by the way).
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Psyk)
But most people in the Republic of Ireland would dispute that it is in the British Isles (I'm not taking any side on that argument by the way).

Don't worry about it. It's one of the SNPs, we can change everything, but everything will remain exactly the same phrases that have come out recently. They've tried to alleviate concerns about which currency we'd be using by saying we'll keep the pound, even though as they want us to join the EU they're ignoring the fact that we'll have to take on the Euro for that to happen.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Psyk)
But most people in the Republic of Ireland would dispute that it is in the British Isles (I'm not taking any side on that argument by the way).
I've not met one that would. It is a simple geographical, non-political term - just like the Irish Sea.
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Psyk
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(Original post by Good bloke)
I've not met one that would. It is a simple geographical, non-political term - just like the Irish Sea.
Maybe it's only Irish people on Youtube then
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Good bloke
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#2498
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(Original post by Psyk)
Maybe it's only Irish people on Youtube then
Keyboard warriors, not everyday normal people.
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MatureStudent36
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http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...clear-strategy
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Blue Meltwater
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#2500
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#2500
Hm, that's a bit worrying. I wonder what the SNP response to this will be? Though:

the Scottish delegation was also told that no new member would be allowed to join Nato if that state had unresolved military or territorial disputes with other countries.
I wonder when/why this became a rule? It must be a new policy, else how did the likes of the UK, Spain or West Germany ever become members? And would the issue of Faslane really count as a 'territorial dispute'? The article even acknowledges that NATO would have an interest in allowing Scotland into the alliance, and I imagine there would be pressure on both sides to settle any disputes that could emerge.

Certainly a blow for Salmond's campaign, but once you get past the headline and scaremongering it doesn't necessarily have to be a major problem. The main issue appears to be Salmond's incoherent policy rather than the implications of NATO membership.
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