POST HERE For Discussion About The DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN (Updated) Watch

Poll: Osama's death?
He was killed on the 1st of may. (121)
46.36%
He was killed earlyer than the 1st of may (65)
24.9%
He is still alive (37)
14.18%
He is a myth (38)
14.56%
the realist
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#2521
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#2521
(Original post by Lizzzle)
I wonder if you wear aluminium foil hats because "they can hear you otherwise"
So wait because you "believe" the Americans, you are refuting established methods of proving a death has even occurred, let alone it's cause?...and you know if you stick by the validity of these methods and insist on their implementation in appropriate situations they must be a bit strange....

Sorry but your line of thought does not coincide with that of a judges or juries, i'd go so far as to say with your attitude you should not even be allowed to sit on a jury.
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Lizzzle
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#2522
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#2522
(Original post by the realist)
So wait because you "believe" the Americans, you are refuting established methods of proving a death has even occurred, let alone it's cause?...and you know if you stick by the validity of these methods and insist on their implementation in appropriate situations they must be a bit strange....

It's not just "the americans" though is it?

It's the military
It's David Cameron,
Tony Blair
The Palestinian president
Pakistan president
Saudi Arabian president
Australian prime minister
and dozens more world leaders.

are they all in on it too?
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Lizzzle
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#2523
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#2523
you sound ridiculous.
I don't even see how you're trying to justify this with the rule of law.

But since you want to take it down that line - you didn't respond to my post earlier about what would happe if Bin Laden was indeed taken to trial.

You study law? As do I. Surely you would then know that there are exceptions to case law findings, that no trial is ever the same. The law is about being practical just as much as it is about procedures and following the law.

Any trial that would've included Bin Laden would not have been practical or just.
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the realist
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#2524
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#2524
(Original post by Lizzzle)
It's not just "the americans" though is it?

It's the military
It's David Cameron,
Tony Blair
The Palestinian president
Pakistan president
Saudi Arabian president
Australian prime minister
and dozens more world leaders.

are they all in on it too?
Well before i make judgements on that, i wish to be privvy to any and all evidence they have used to make that judgement that Osama bin ladin is dead. Furthermore, i would ask, why are they witholding that evidence from their populations?

If you think even most of them are privvy to anything conclusive on this particular issue that isn't directly fed to them from the americans, then you are wrong. They are most likely what we call "towing the official line".

If they know anything we should know, let them speak!! and not in ambigious and very vague terms that usually suffice as a political explanation,
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Dekota-XS
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#2525
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#2525
(Original post by Lizzzle)
It's not just "the americans" though is it?

It's the military
It's David Cameron,
Tony Blair
The Palestinian president
Pakistan president
Saudi Arabian president
Australian prime minister
and dozens more world leaders.

are they all in on it too?
They're all going by the word of Barack Obama. No evidence has been provided to prove anything yet. I think there should be an inquest into how this operation was carried out by the Americans and whether it was just or not.
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Aj12
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#2526
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#2526
(Original post by the realist)
So wait because you "believe" the Americans, you are refuting established methods of proving a death has even occurred, let alone it's cause?...and you know if you stick by the validity of these methods and insist on their implementation in appropriate situations they must be a bit strange....

Sorry but your line of thought does not coincide with that of a judges or juries, i'd go so far as to say with your attitude you should not even be allowed to sit on a jury.
Why would Al Qaeda accept that he is dead if he was alive.
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the realist
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#2527
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#2527
(Original post by Lizzzle)
you sound ridiculous.
I don't even see how you're trying to justify this with the rule of law.

But since you want to take it down that line - you didn't respond to my post earlier about what would happe if Bin Laden was indeed taken to trial.

You study law? As do I. Surely you would then know that there are exceptions to case law findings, that no trial is ever the same. The law is about being practical just as much as it is about procedures and following the law.

Any trial that would've included Bin Laden would not have been practical or just.
I don't study law, but it makes me laugh that you do

So instead they kill him in a different country from the one where he supposedly greatest crime was commited, and care not to even provide due evidence of that punishment to the families and victims of his crimes and the people that have to live in fear of his actions day in day out? Even the Israelis offered more justice to ex-nazis they tried in Israel and if not to the nazis, they gave their own people a sense of justice, and they managed secure a lot of guys alive despite not operating in a complicit country that allows the kidnap, murder and the causing of civil unrest amongst it's citizens. And those trials were STILL illegal.

This is not Obamas nemesis, or the CIAs, it is the people that have lived under the threat of terrorism, the government is first and foremost answerable to the people and their concerns. You can't premise wars, destruction, billions of dollars on the idea of terrorism and a great threat to your people and then willfully keep your people in ignorance or outright decieve them over the results. Even if you are not a conspiracy you should not be happy about this, whether the motivations are sinister or it's incompetence and malpractice to blame.


Facts are facts and as yet:

No WMDs in Iraq
No conlusive proof of Osama death
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DorianGrayism
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#2528
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#2528
(Original post by the realist)
I don't study law, but it makes me laugh that you do

So instead they kill him in a different country from the one where he supposedly greatest crime was commited, and care not to even provide due evidence of that punishment to the families and victims of his crimes and the people that have to live in fear of his actions day in day out? Even the Israelis offered more justice to ex-nazis they tried in Israel and if not to the nazis, they gave their own people a sense of justice, and they managed secure a lot of guys alive despite not operating in a complicit country that allows the kidnap, murder and the causing of civil unrest amongst it's citizens. And those trials were STILL illegal.

This is not Obamas nemesis, or the CIAs, it is the people that have lived under the threat of terrorism, the government is first and foremost answerable to the people and their concerns. You can't premise wars, destruction, billions of dollars on the idea of terrorism and a great threat to your people and then willfully keep your people in ignorance or outright decieve them over the results. Even if you are not a conspiracy you should not be happy about this, whether the motivations are sinister or it's incompetence and malpractice to blame.


Facts are facts and as yet:

No WMDs in Iraq
No conlusive proof of Osama death
There is evidence of Osama's death. IF you choose to believe it or not is your own problem.

Furthermore, the killing is potentially legal even if they entered another country and shot him, regardless of whether evidence was presented or not.
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Dekota-XS
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#2529
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#2529
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
There is evidence of Osama's death. IF you choose to believe it or not is your own problem.

Furthermore, the killing is potentially legal even if they entered another country and shot him, regardless of whether evidence was presented or not.
That post doesn't make much sense. When we think about what has taken place, it's quite important to think about it objectively rather than subjectively. OBL was no immediate threat to anyone and if he was, there is no corroborative proof of that. Had them five videos consisted of anything vaguely suggesting a future terror attack on America then this would be an open and shut case in favour of America. As it stands, the videos go against America's ideologies that he was a threat to them.

It's now become irrelevant whether he is dead or not. In light of how the operation was conducted, there has been a rising Al-Qaeda and OBL supporters in the Muslim countries and when they do start fighting back, no one in this country will want to question whether OBL is alive or not. When the West invades and mercilessly kills in the East, it's called an operation, when the middle East strikes back on the West, it's called terrorism and so the cycle continues.
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the realist
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#2530
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#2530
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
There is evidence of Osama's death. IF you choose to believe it or not is your own problem.

Furthermore, the killing is potentially legal even if they entered another country and shot him, regardless of whether evidence was presented or not.
evidence is not conclusive proof. You can prove a death conclusively actually, it's really easy, because all you are proving is a death. Not cause of death, not motive not nothing else.


Simply, the body proves the death.


As to the legality, whats your bet there'll be an investigation?
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DorianGrayism
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#2531
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#2531
(Original post by Dekota-XS)
That post doesn't make much sense. When we think about what has taken place, it's quite important to think about it objectively rather than subjectively. OBL was no immediate threat to anyone and if he was, there is no corroborative proof of that. Had them five videos consisted of anything vaguely suggesting a future terror attack on America then this would be an open and shut case in favour of America. As it stands, the videos go against America's ideologies that he was a threat to them.
The videos were not meant to prove he was a threat. That isn't why they were released and that is why there isn't any sound on them.

You say he wasn't an immediate threat. The American Government and the NAVY seals say he was.

We don't know what happened on that day. So any speculation to the legality is rather useless. My only point was that it is potentially legal since people do not know exactly what happened.


(Original post by Dekota-XS)
It's now become irrelevant whether he is dead or not. In light of how the operation was conducted, there has been a rising Al-Qaeda and OBL supporters in the Muslim countries and when they do start fighting back, no one in this country will want to question whether OBL is alive or not. When the West invades and mercilessly kills in the East, it's called an operation, when the middle East strikes back on the West, it's called terrorism and so the cycle continues.
Sure, and when Al Qaeda and the Taliban mercilessly kill in the East, it is also called terrorism.
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the realist
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#2532
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#2532
(Original post by Aj12)
Why would Al Qaeda accept that he is dead if he was alive.
So a statement on a website signed by the "general leadership" of al-queda means anything when supposedly Osama bin laden was "controlling" that very organisation from his mansion with a few flash drives and 20 seconds film, and now they've got him and his place....shouldn't US be one step away from taking these guys out? who are these guys? i'd like their identities and spoken, written and signed testimony please. Not any old internet hero will do. Although simpler America could have just not buried the body....

maybe they should ask Osama who they are? no wait they killed him because you know, he was THAT important, he was controlling the organisation and all....
Of course they could have solved this problem with a body or a trial:rolleyes:

Maybe they should talk to the guys in guantanamo, you know that place that is still running now, today, where there is probably 5 guys who will admit to being osama bin laden just to get the probe off their balls. yet there was no desire to take Osama there?....

I have a funny feeling al-queda is always going to be that boogieman they turn to. "look we killed al-queda and all it's members...oh wait, breaking news in, al-queda released a statement saying they will take revenge for this most sacriligious of acts...."

Heres the deal:

Not only is the gov allowed to assasinate people for the peoples benefit. It doesn't even have to prove it killed who they say they did or even substantiate with evidence the claims for why they have taken such action. Its also allowed to hold people without trial or humane treatment for the purpose of torture or to acquire information, If you are unlucky and don't have anything useful to say they will leave you to rot for indefinate and seemingly infinate periods, if you do have anything useful to say you are already dead because the government didn't think it wise to capture you.


They do it every day to normal innocent people and i'm sure not so innocent ones and no one takes much notice. This instance is the single most important example of this happening, but it is not acceptable to brush this off as just another death. Not the guy they named within hours of the 911 attacks, not the guy whos been all over television, not the reason we went to war. Not this time. Your acceptance of the status quo lack of accountability is disturbing considering the circumstances. Conspiracy or no conspiracy.

CIA bro
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Aj12
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#2533
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#2533
(Original post by the realist)
So a statement on a website signed by the "general leadership" of al-queda means anything when supposedly Osama bin laden was "controlling" that very organisation from his mansion with a few flash drives and 20 seconds film, and now they've got him and his place....shouldn't US be one step away from taking these guys out? who are these guys? i'd like their identities and spoken, written and signed testimony please. Not any old internet hero will do. Although simpler America could have just not buried the body....

maybe they should ask Osama who they are? no wait they killed him because you know, he was THAT important, he was controlling the organisation and all....
Of course they could have solved this problem with a body or a trial:rolleyes:

Maybe they should talk to the guys in guantanamo, you know that place that is still running now, today, where there is probably 5 guys who will admit to being osama bin laden just to get the probe off their balls. yet there was no desire to take Osama there?....

I have a funny feeling al-queda is always going to be that boogieman they turn to. "look we killed al-queda and all it's members...oh wait, breaking news in, al-queda released a statement saying they will take revenge for this most sacriligious of acts...."

Heres the deal:

Not only is the gov allowed to assasinate people for the peoples benefit. It doesn't even have to prove it killed who they say they did or even substantiate with evidence the claims for why they have taken such action. Its also allowed to hold people without trial or humane treatment for the purpose of torture or to acquire information, If you are unlucky and don't have anything useful to say they will leave you to rot for indefinate and seemingly infinate periods, if you do have anything useful to say you are already dead because the government didn't think it wise to capture you.


They do it every day to normal innocent people and i'm sure not so innocent ones and no one takes much notice. This instance is the single most important example of this happening, but it is not acceptable to brush this off as just another death. Not the guy they named within hours of the 911 attacks, not the guy whos been all over television, not the reason we went to war. Not this time. Your acceptance of the status quo lack of accountability is disturbing considering the circumstances. Conspiracy or no conspiracy.

CIA bro
Well Osama was known to have met with Taliban commanders an Al Qaeda at most 5 months before his death. The Al Qaeda high command only signs off on high level operations so really its not that difficult to run such an organisation with minimal contract.

In case you missed the news the US just launched drone strikes in Yemen and missed a high level target that they were after thanks to Intel found in the Mansion.

Trial would never have worked. Islamic world would have seen it as a farce. Every man and women in the trial would be at risk. Al Qaeda would launch kidnappings to trade for him. A tactic they are well known for.

And do what with him? He is worth more to the Americans dead than alive. They are fighting as much a psychological war as a physical one.

And what if they did release the pictures? I bet we would have this same debate with you claiming the pictures were fake. Face it no matter what the US government does people will always assume they are lying. So why bother pandering to people.
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DorianGrayism
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#2534
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#2534
(Original post by the realist)
evidence is not conclusive proof. You can prove a death conclusively actually, it's really easy, because all you are proving is a death. Not cause of death, not motive not nothing else.


Simply, the body proves the death.


As to the legality, whats your bet there'll be an investigation?
I know evidence is not proof. That wasn't my point.

To get a proof, you need evidence. There is proof. That is why I said, it is a question of whether you believe the evidence or not.

Whether you believe the proof is conclusive or not, is again, your own problem. There is no scientific standard to demonstrate that a proof is conclusive. I don't need to see someone dead to believe they are dead whereas you do.
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the realist
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#2535
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#2535
(Original post by Aj12)
Well Osama was known to have met with Taliban commanders an Al Qaeda at most 5 months before his death. The Al Qaeda high command only signs off on high level operations so really its not that difficult to run such an organisation with minimal contract.

In case you missed the news the US just launched drone strikes in Yemen and missed a high level target that they were after thanks to Intel found in the Mansion.

Trial would never have worked. Islamic world would have seen it as a farce. Every man and women in the trial would be at risk. Al Qaeda would launch kidnappings to trade for him. A tactic they are well known for.

And do what with him? He is worth more to the Americans dead than alive. They are fighting as much a psychological war as a physical one.

And what if they did release the pictures? I bet we would have this same debate with you claiming the pictures were fake. Face it no matter what the US government does people will always assume they are lying. So why bother pandering to people.
Not really the US government is pretty lucky, people have already forgotten about there being no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even the conspiracy theorists by and large are always onto something new.

Fortunately there is always something new to move onto and some pathetic excuses to pull apart. So you really think Arabs are going to realise they are poor, oppressed and being bombed the **** out when they see Osamas body on tv or whatever because they didn't realise who was killing the hell out of them when the bombs started falling in Iraq and afghanistan?

you're are worried about the odd psychopath who might see Osama on TV and idolize him, when the true foundations of terror have been being built for years on the ground? bizarre.
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the realist
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#2536
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#2536
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
I know evidence is not proof. That wasn't my point.

To get a proof, you need evidence. There is proof. That is why I said, it is a question of whether you believe the evidence or not.

Whether you believe the proof is conclusive or not, is again, your own problem. There is no scientific standard to demonstrate that a proof is conclusive. I don't need to see someone dead to believe they are dead whereas you do.
No i don't need to see someone who is dead to believe they are dead, i don't need to see leonardo da vincis body to conclude that he is dead for instance, for logical reasons. Theres a lot of peoples bodies i don't need to see to believe they are dead.

However i do believe that given the expenditure of billions of dollars, human life and capital as well as the generation of press and mass hysteria over the whereabouts of this one particular individual who at one point was famously WANTEDEAD OR ALIVE, that his death should be proved conclusively, from his body. That is if we wanted him that bad.
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cakefish
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#2537
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#2537
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vilongo
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#2538
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#2538
(Original post by Lizzzle)
It's not that hard to find dye, considering he had people who would've bought him food and clothing for the last 10 years or so.
Why would there need to be other people in the videos? He is the leader of Al-Qaeda who was on the run, anyone else with him would've been minions who did small work and would've faced being identified and thus getting OBL caught. Or his wives and children and they would've faced being caught too.
No new video has been put out yes, but these videos show that he was rehearsing to put out a new video - which also goes with what the CIA are saying about the intelligence they gathered from the computer which suggests OBL was planning more attacks on America.
There is not much the guy can do - he's the most wanted man in America, did you expect him to take a trip to Disneyland and decorate his house, and have children's toys all over the floor?
The house was built for over $1m dollars in 2005 but that was the cost of the building. That million didn't contain any money for furniture or any other expenses - clearly all he wanted was an actual building.

And what you mean a few unexplained changes in appearance? It's been 10 years, he's been hiding, clearly he hasn't been living comfortably because he's always on the lookout. He probably hasn't seen sun or had any real fresh air in many many years that would age anybody. Reportedly he had a few health problems too. But even then that's a ridiculous claim. People lose their hair at 20 years old, and people go grey at that time too. To suggest that because he had grey hairs is "an unexplainable change in appearance" is actually ridiculous

Baby, he was trying to troll me.

He's trolling you, and others really hard.

He is with us (rational people); he Just wanted to be a little sarcastic, that's all.
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Iqbal007
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#2539
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#2539
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
They do have photos. They do have a video of the gun fight since they watched it.

They have DNA. I am sure they can do another one if they wanted to do but I don't see the point.

No, the pictures and witness colerate with the original reports of the story as well.


As I said before, they don't need to go to such absurd lengths just to pretend to kill Bin Laden or whatever story you believe in.



So basically you are saying that people in the Bush Administration are psychic and also that the US spent 1 trillion on invading a backward hole to get a few mineral deposits which can be found in lots of other countries at cheaper prices..... O K then.

You can believe that.

I agree with you on the last part. The entire mission was a kill mission. There have been sources in the white house that have said that.
Yeah, what photos... there not even releasing these so called photos or videos..... how can i trust them when i'm not being shown the proof.

How did they even get his DNA :confused: they must then be in contact with him before which is impossible so how can they even tell

what witnesses and photos, all i recall was his family being there, and we cant trust the soldiers as there bias.

Yes they would go to absurd lengths, Obama is all of a sudden the hero of USA even tho he did nothing, hes got another election in the bag..

Its not a few small mineral deposits, Iraq has huge oil fields, everyone knows it, oil a barrel is $100+, they wanna keep tht low nd cheap... and oil's hard to find...
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DorianGrayism
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#2540
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#2540
(Original post by Iqbal007)
Yeah, what photos... there not even releasing these so called photos or videos..... how can i trust them when i'm not being shown the proof.

How did they even get his DNA :confused: they must then be in contact with him before which is impossible so how can they even tell

what witnesses and photos, all i recall was his family being there, and we cant trust the soldiers as there bias.

Yes they would go to absurd lengths, Obama is all of a sudden the hero of USA even tho he did nothing, hes got another election in the bag..

Its not a few small mineral deposits, Iraq has huge oil fields, everyone knows it, oil a barrel is $100+, they wanna keep tht low nd cheap... and oil's hard to find...

You can get a relative's DNA (IE His Daughter) and compare the two and you can tell what relation the dead person is to them.

Also, I was talking about Afghanistan with relation to the mineral deposits. Not Iraq.
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