The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Jammy Duel
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#2521
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#2521
(Original post by Rakas21)
I would contribute to the compass debate by saying that there's also a difference between what i believe in and what is practically possible. If i were a dictator i'd be quite happy to abolish most planning law so that the market can deliver the number of homes we need (other than cost, beaurocracy is the biggest thing holding development back). As a democracy though, that's not possible (because NIMBY's would never vote for you) and so the best solution is a MacMillan style building programme in certain counties with the right to buy as strong as possible.

What i believe in principal would therefore look uber-right, what i'd do given the constraints we have is left of RL on this issue.
Personally, with things like PC I would answer with how I actually think, rather than the "I have to tone this down because too many people are stupid" version.
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Rakas21
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#2522
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#2522
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Personally, with things like PC I would answer with how I actually think, rather than the "I have to tone this down because too many people are stupid" version.
Indeed i think they did. Hence my +8 capitalist score.
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Kittiara
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#2523
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#2523
It is difficult to find your position on the political spectrum with tests of that kind. My score was pretty far to the left, but I'm all over the place in reality. And I can usually find something in each RL party's manifesto that I like. Last election I even agreed with the BNP on a couple of points (countryside issues).
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Life_peer
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#2524
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#2524
(Original post by RayApparently)
Its such a boring/not-at-all-topical debate to spend so much time campaigning on. I do still think a TSR President would be good though.
It is, I agree. But it's also a good way of making the republicans shut up for a while.
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username1524603
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#2525
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#2525
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
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James Milibanter
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#2526
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#2526
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
Well here's the thing. I care about myself, I am largely self interested and it's because of this that I believe in sustainability, both economic and environmental.
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username1524603
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#2527
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#2527
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well here's the thing. I care about myself, I am largely self interested and it's because of this that I believe in sustainability, both economic and environmental.
I understand wanting sustainability but I do not make the connection between sustainability and wealth taxes, mansion taxes, land value tax, and financial transaction taxes the Greens promise. The extra taxes do not encourage sustainability or environmentalism, all they do is generate money for the government to use in the long-term goal wealth redistribution.
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Rakas21
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#2528
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#2528
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
That's largely what i said myself.
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James Milibanter
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#2529
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#2529
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
I understand wanting sustainability but I do not make the connection between stability and wealth taxes, mansion taxes, land value tax, and financial transaction taxes the Greens promise. The extra taxes do not encourage sustainability or environmentalism.
Well I firmly believe that capitalism is unsustainable, and wealth distribution brings about less socioeconomic disparity (which results in the poor getting poorer, and as a poor person this is where my self interest comes in) as well as increases the amount of money taken in by the treasury which then gets spent on public services which provide for everyone.
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barnetlad
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#2530
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#2530
Interesting paradox in the shopping centre in Barnet yesterday. Rotary club offering free blood pressure checks, with ex councillor Brian Coleman helping them, the very man who offended local traders so much that they had an 'ABC- anyone but Coleman' campaign at the 2012 London Assembly elections.
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barnetlad
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#2531
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#2531
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
If people are poor or persecuted elsewhere, aren't they more likely to want to migrate?
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James Milibanter
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#2532
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#2532
(Original post by barnetlad)
If people are poor or persecuted elsewhere, aren't they more likely to want to migrate?
ooooooooooooooh, interesting. :battle:
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username1524603
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#2533
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#2533
(Original post by barnetlad)
If people are poor or persecuted elsewhere, aren't they more likely to want to migrate?
They are but my response would be implementing stricter immigration controls to keep them out rather then intervening to try and develop their own country. By developing their own country the potential exists for their country to gain more power on the international stage where I want the power to be with Britain and our allies.
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James Milibanter
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#2534
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#2534
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
They are but my response would be implementing stricter immigration controls to keep them out rather then intervening to try and develop their own country. By developing their own country the potential exists for their country to gain more power on the international stage where I want the power to be with Britain and our allies.
Surely by helping them out they'd eventually become allies, wouldn't they?
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Kittiara
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#2535
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#2535
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
I personally do care. Take the environment for example. Part of my concern is a matter of self-interest, sure. Whether or not people believe in climate change, I like to breathe clean air. Polluting the oceans is not very smart if people want to eat fish. Polluting the soil is not clever if people want to grow crops. So, it serves all of us to look after the environment. Moreover, if climate change is a thing, we risk nations (or substantial parts of nations) being flooded. That is terrible for the people in those nations (imagine if it were Britain), and it raises the question - where will all those people go?

I care about other people suffering, when it's so unnecessary. We're a wealthy nation, yet people need food banks, the ILF is being withdrawn, waiting lists for people with mental health problems can run into years, without those people receiving any support, and on a global scale many of our products are produced by people working in conditions that we would consider horrifying, and there are those who are dying from hunger whilst in the West we waste food on a massive scale. I'd like to think that we can do better than that, and that we are better than that.
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James Milibanter
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#2536
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#2536
(Original post by Kittiara)
I personally do care. Take the environment for example. Part of my concern is a matter of self-interest, sure. Whether or not people believe in climate change, I like to breathe clean air. Polluting the oceans is not very smart if people want to eat fish. Polluting the soil is not clever if people want to grow crops. So, it serves all of us to look after the environment. Moreover, if climate change is a thing, we risk nations (or substantial parts of nations) being flooded. That is terrible for the people in those nations (imagine if it were Britain), and it raises the question - where will all those people go?

I care about other people suffering, when it's so unnecessary. We're a wealthy nation, yet people need food banks, the ILF is being withdrawn, waiting lists for people with mental health problems can run into years, without those people receiving any support, and on a global scale many of our products are produced by people working in conditions that we would consider horrifying, and there are those who are dying from hunger whilst in the West we waste food on a massive scale. I'd like to think that we can do better than that, and that we are better than that.
Hear Hear!!
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username1524603
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#2537
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#2537
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Surely by helping them out they'd eventually become allies, wouldn't they?
Not always as the country could have different cultures to us creating hostility, or our help could help them establish more global power where I want Britain and our allies to dominate. There could be potential to peacefully coexist but that must come back to an underlying though over why peaceful coexistence is better than being in the dominant country. It is this underlying force leading to some people wanting peaceful coexistence of equally powerful nations I am trying to locate.

(Original post by Kittiara)
I care about other people suffering, when it's so unnecessary. We're a wealthy nation, yet people need food banks, the ILF is being withdrawn, waiting lists for people with mental health problems can run into years, without those people receiving any support, and on a global scale many of our products are produced by people working in conditions that we would consider horrifying, and there are those who are dying from hunger whilst in the West we waste food on a massive scale. I'd like to think that we can do better than that, and that we are better than that.
I understand where you are coming from in your first paragraph as everything there would better Britain, apart from the question. What is it that causes you to care about where the people would go, or why people should needlessly suffer? I know people care but I do not know why they care when it does not have a major impact on them. I agree the world build up is not very balanced, and I think it was with you a while back where I made the point that any steps towards improving the living conditions of people producing our goods will have the impact of lowering our living standards.

Apart from previously experiencing hardship what is it in people that cause them to care? What is it in people that causes them to want to believe we can do better, and that we are better?

Once it has been identified what makes people care, the people who do not currently care like myself can start to change. This is the hurdle to the apparently better world imagined by the Green Party. Until the factor causing people to care has been identified the world will not change even with a potential move away from scarcity.
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James Milibanter
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#2538
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#2538
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
Not always as the country could have different cultures to us creating hostility, or our help could help them establish more global power where I want Britain and our allies to dominate. There could be potential to peacefully coexist but that must come back to an underlying though over why peaceful coexistence is better than being in the dominant country. It is this underlying force leading to some people wanting peaceful coexistence of equally powerful nations I am trying to locate.
Well let's take Greece for example, they're currently in talks with Russia to get them out of debt. Wouldn't it be better that we give them a hand, doesn't even have to be with money, than let them buddy up with the enemy?
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username1524603
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#2539
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#2539
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well let's take Greece for example, they're currently in talks with Russia to get them out of debt. Wouldn't it be better that we give them a hand, doesn't even have to be with money, than let them buddy up with the enemy?
In that case but the same could not be said for giving aid to Argentina.
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James Milibanter
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#2540
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#2540
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
In that case but the same could not be said for giving aid to Argentina.
The scenario isn't the same:
I am sure you know that there is oil just off the coast of the falklands and the Argentinians have their eyes on it, if they were also considering allying with Russia, what would you plan on doing?
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