The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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That Bearded Man
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#2541
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#2541
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
You people confuse me a lot and I feel I could be the odd one out here. I do not really care about the socioeconomics of another community, or the situation another person is in. I mainly care about myself and the people I have emotional connections with. It is the reason I will always vote for a party offering me tax cuts and promising not to unfairly punish the rich, encouraging me to accumulate wealth, and always avoid a party promising me other people's money.

The same can be said about my view on international relations. I only care about Britain's standing in the world order and the standing of Britain's closest allies. I do not possess a great deal of concern about the state of some minor country in the world as it does not affect me. Granted, sometimes decisions will be made in Britain to help other countries as our efforts will benefit Britain, for example, controlling the spread of diseases, but the decisions are made with Britain's interest in mind and not the interest of the country the disease started in.

Several parties on the left are concerned with global equality, national equality, world governments and development, but I question if they really care, or if they pretend they care to feel good.
This attitude confuses and frustrates me, this kind of selfishness Is holding the world back. I wholeheartedly believe that if we had a society where, say, the rich patriotic Brit agrees that an 80% tax rate is fair, the world would be a better place, and that is a goal of mine. I see little difference between a British person and a Dutch person in terms of who I'd rather help. My goal is to support the improvement of the world, which is hampered by people who share your viewpoint, who seek profit in selling bottled water in Europe over promoting free water to people dying in Africa, who support environmental damage elsewhere in exchange for personal profit for themselves, who are happy to let people die to ensure they receive maximum profit on medication they create.

I appreciate your honesty, but I wish this attitude didn't exist.
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username1524603
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#2542
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#2542
(Original post by James Milibanter)
The scenario isn't the same:
I am sure you know that there is oil just off the coast of the falklands and the Argentinians have their eyes on it, if they were also considering allying with Russia, what would you plan on doing?
My first step would be to turn the Falklands into a fortress, secondly our relationship with the USA would be strengthened and sanctions would be proposed against Argentina. The steps may seem to drive Argentina towards Russia but I would count on Russia either not wanting a minor country like Argentina, or Russia not wanting to worsen its private relations with the West.

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
This attitude confuses and frustrates me, this kind of selfishness Is holding the world back. I wholeheartedly believe that if we had a society where, say, the rich patriotic Brit agrees that an 80% tax rate is fair, the world would be a better place, and that is a goal of mine. I see little difference between a British person and a Dutch person in terms of who I'd rather help. My goal is to support the improvement of the world, which is hampered by people who share your viewpoint, who seek profit in selling bottled water in Europe over promoting free water to people dying in Africa, who support environmental damage elsewhere in exchange for personal profit for themselves, who are happy to let people die to ensure they receive maximum profit on medication they create.

I appreciate your honesty, but I wish this attitude didn't exist.
I agree with you, it may be better if the world did not have attitudes like that but it does. That is the point, the attitudes are never going to change as the rich are not going to want to give up 80% in tax. The Anglo-European countries will always want to be dominant preventing change from happening. Until the factor causing the different attitudes is discovered the perfect world as you describe, we will accept it is perfect, will never exist, hence the idealist claim.

I want to know why some people care and some people do not.
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InnerTemple
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#2543
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#2543
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
They are but my response would be implementing stricter immigration controls to keep them out rather then intervening to try and develop their own country. By developing their own country the potential exists for their country to gain more power on the international stage where I want the power to be with Britain and our allies.
So rather than tackling the root of the problem, you'd rather have areas of the globe which are destabilised and hot beds of human rights abuses and generally unpleasant activities.

Areas where criminality, including terrorism, can thrive which ultimately affects us. Areas where communities are left in squalor - which ultimately requires our support in one way or another.

At the same time, you'll happily watch as people drown, 700+ at a time trying to reach a land where they can enjoy a life which the likes of you or me take for granted. A life you and I have by accident of birth. If they don't drown, your happy to send them back to try again.

Interesting...
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Kittiara
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#2544
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(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)

I understand where you are coming from in your first paragraph as everything there would better Britain, apart from the question. What is it that causes you to care about where the people would go, or why people should needlessly suffer? I know people care but I do not know why they care when it does not have a major impact on them. I agree the world build up is not very balanced, and I think it was with you a while back where I made the point that any steps towards improving the living conditions of people producing our goods will have the impact of lowering our living standards.

Apart from previously experiencing hardship what is it in people that cause them to care? What is it in people that causes them to want to believe we can do better, and that we are better?

Once it has been identified what makes people care, the people who do not currently care like myself can start to change. This is the hurdle to the apparently better world imagined by the Green Party. Until the factor causing people to care has been identified the world will not change even with a potential move away from scarcity.
I care because I can imagine myself in their shoes, I guess. Whilst my imaginations only offer a limited insight into the reality of the suffering, I can have empathy. Now, I would be the first to admit that I don't sit around all day weeping about the fate of the poor starving children in Africa. Nobody can live their lives like that. And of course my first concern is for my nearest and dearest rather than people I have never met and will never meet. However, we are all people, with similar hopes and similar dreams. And if I wouldn't like something horrible to happen to me, and there are ways to prevent that something horrible from happening to others, why not try?

I do perhaps have an idealistic faith in the goodness of humanity. I think that at our very core, we want greater harmony. We want for the good guy to defeat the bad guy. We champion good over evil. Most stories are centered around that theme, and there is a desire for a happy ending.

Do you look at the state of the world and feel satisfied with what is? I feel that there is a lot of room for improvement. So, when deciding what should be improved and how to go about it, it's all about figuring out what you value. I personally value life, and a decent quality of life, happiness and well-being. My happiness and well-being doesn't need to rest upon someone else on the other side of the planet having a terrible existence.
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username1524603
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#2545
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#2545
(Original post by InnerTemple)
So rather than tackling the root of the problem, you'd rather have areas of the globe which are destabilised and hot beds of human rights abuses and generally unpleasant activities.

Areas where criminality, including terrorism, can thrive which ultimately affects us. Areas where communities are left in squalor - which ultimately requires our support in one way or another.

At the same time, you'll happily watch as people drown, 700+ at a time trying to reach a land where they can enjoy a life which the likes of you or me take for granted. A life you and I have by accident of birth. If they don't drown, your happy to send them back to try again.

Interesting...
I am not going to lie to you, my honest answer is yes. Provided the things you mention do not have an uncontrollable impact on Britain I would not intervene. I would only support intervention if doing so would directly help us in cases like disease. It is easy to mention big cases such as Greece as they have a big impact and I accept intervention there, but as for the happenings in countries like Kiribati or Comoros there is no need to care or to do anything.
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InnerTemple
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#2546
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#2546
(Original post by Kittiara)
I care because I can imagine myself in their shoes, I guess.
Rawl's theory of justice and the "veil of ignorance".

When you think about something, think of it as if you are a being yet to arrive on earth. You could end up a man, a woman. A gay man, a gay woman. Rich or Poor. African or American. You could end up being a dog or a cat.

Without knowing which you would be, how would you want the world to be run?

I find the above exercise quite interesting.
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That Bearded Man
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#2547
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#2547
(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
My first step would be to turn the Falklands into a fortress, secondly our relationship with the USA would be strengthened and sanctions would be proposed against Argentina. The steps may seem to drive Argentina towards Russia but I would count on Russia either not wanting a minor country like Argentina, or Russia not wanting to worsen its private relations with the West.



I agree with you, it may be better if the world did not have attitudes like that but it does. That is the point, the attitudes are never going to change as the rich are not going to want to give up 80% in tax. The Anglo-European countries will always want to be dominant preventing change from happening. Until the factor causing the different attitudes is discovered the perfect world as you describe, we will accept it is perfect, will never exist, hence the idealist claim.

I want to know why some people care and some people do not.
Probably a childhood experience, my parents are public sector employees, thus I have always supported a strong public sector. Different parental attitudes (taxes are unfair v rough but how else will we fund things) maybe a childhood episode where a foreigner let you down, maybe a criminal experience, hence you are more trusting in your own kind, or maybe you felt let down in general, hence you learn not to trust anyone. Extreme examples, but I'm sure they would definitely shift someone's opinion.
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James Milibanter
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#2548
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#2548
(Original post by InnerTemple)
Rawl's theory of justice and the "veil of ignorance".

When you think about something, think of it as if you are a being yet to arrive on earth. You could end up a man, a woman. A gay man, a gay woman. Rich or Poor. African or American. You could end up being a dog or a cat.

Without knowing which you would be, how would you want the world to be run?

I find the above exercise quite interesting.
We had to do something like that in school once, we had to imagine being stranded on an island and had to decide how the island would be managed considering there was all the necessary resources we needed to live on and gold on a neighbouring, inhabited island. Half the class decided that they would attack the neighbouring island to take the gold and use is as currency whilst the other half decided they'd leave the second island alone until all was sorted on the first island and a sustainable farming arrangement could be maintained.
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Tanqueray91
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#2549
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#2549
Afternoon everyone!

It's a rather chilly Sunday afternoon (for me anyway), and I'm already dreading Monday, so let's get started early!

After I have found out about the theft that occured last night, no rounds on the house - unless I like you, then we can work something out!

Enjoy!
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Kittiara
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#2550
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#2550
(Original post by InnerTemple)
Rawl's theory of justice and the "veil of ignorance".

When you think about something, think of it as if you are a being yet to arrive on earth. You could end up a man, a woman. A gay man, a gay woman. Rich or Poor. African or American. You could end up being a dog or a cat.

Without knowing which you would be, how would you want the world to be run?

I find the above exercise quite interesting.
Yes, we did that last year in philosophy. Very interesting indeed!

I am also reminded of a lady my family knew. She was a Geman, living in the Netherlands during the Second World War. Being a German in the Netherlands during that time was already risky, but this lady helped countless people escape the Nazis. A true act of heroism. When the war ended, she was treated with disdain, because of her nationality. Other people in the underground resistance received awards, but this lady never received any formal recognition. Yet, she never had any regrets. The way she put it was, "I had the ability to help. So I did what needed to be done." I believe that to be an admirable way of looking at things.
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James Milibanter
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#2551
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#2551
(Original post by mobbsy91)
Afternoon everyone!

It's a rather chilly Sunday afternoon (for me anyway), and I'm already dreading Monday, so let's get started early!

After I have found out about the theft that occured last night, no rounds on the house - unless I like you, then we can work something out!

Enjoy!
How much is it, I'll pay it off. Just done some lobbying for BP so I have a bit of cash lying about.
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Tanqueray91
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#2552
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#2552
(Original post by James Milibanter)
How much is it, I'll pay it off. Just done some lobbying for BP so I have a bit of cash lying about.
I have no idea, as I wasn't around for it - just seen about the vodka, and I'm sure more was taken from behind the bar... look what happens when I'm away for one night...
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JoeL1994
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#2553
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#2553
(Original post by mobbsy91)
Afternoon everyone!

It's a rather chilly Sunday afternoon (for me anyway), and I'm already dreading Monday, so let's get started early!

After I have found out about the theft that occured last night, no rounds on the house - unless I like you, then we can work something out!

Enjoy!
There was no theft, it was water!

Ask Jammy Duel!


(Original post by Jammy Duel)
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James Milibanter
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#2554
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#2554
(Original post by mobbsy91)
I have no idea, as I wasn't around for it - just seen about the vodka, and I'm sure more was taken from behind the bar... look what happens when I'm away for one night...
Well how much would you charge for a free bar for the night? here's a blank cheque, right down whatever number comes to mind.
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Tanqueray91
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#2555
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#2555
(Original post by JoeL1994)
There was no theft, it was water!

Ask Jammy Duel!
Why would you get water in a vodka bottle...? I don't believe you!
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Tanqueray91
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#2556
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#2556
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well how much would you charge for a free bar for the night? here's a blank cheque, right down whatever number comes to mind.
Free bar for the night - usually I'd say £2000. However, this is the MHoC, so I think £5,000 should cover it!
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JoeL1994
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#2557
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#2557
(Original post by mobbsy91)
Why would you get water in a vodka bottle...? I don't believe you!
I demand a trial by combat!
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Tanqueray91
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#2558
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#2558
(Original post by JoeL1994)
I demand a trial by combat!
Huh!?
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Kittiara
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#2559
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#2559
(Original post by JoeL1994)
I demand a trial by combat!
Remember, gentlemen! Light sabers, teddy bears or wet fish only!
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James Milibanter
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#2560
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#2560
(Original post by JoeL1994)
I demand a trial by combat!
Just don't choose a bloke that enjoys a chat.
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