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Teao the Cat
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#241
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#241
(Original post by Pandora.)
I started eating Wheatabix again, if that counts.... :ninja:
Well, it's harvest related! :p:
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Hravan
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#242
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#242
(Original post by Teao the Cat)
So, did anyone have any particularly special Lammas celebrations? I decided it would be a good day to make some bread, which I haven't done in ages!
I was actually with my (also pagan) friend on Lammas and we didn't do anything! :lol:

But anyway, on Tuesday I went around my garden and harvested a load of herbs, lavender and roses which are now drying (or in the case of the roses, used to make rose water) and will be used in spellwork.

I also did a small ritual last week as I have wheat fields behind my house so I tend to do a ritual when the farmer starts to harvest them...
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#243
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#243
(Original post by emerset)
I do not support abortion after 16 weeks. .
I am glad to hear it. Your reasoning, may I presume is because of the development of the nervous system? In which case do you have any logical objection against those in a vegetative state or those with a grossly abnormal nervous system being actively killed? If you do then why?

(Original post by emerset)
Your argument for personhood is that we treat the foetus like a person therefore it should be a person? Where do you draw the line let me ask? You seem to defend logic and especially ethics: I suppose you draw the line at the moment of conception? That seems far more religious than logical to me..
You presume correctly. Personhood from conception. There is no other logical position that is consistent. If you attribute personhood at any other point then that is arbritary and no more logical than the point of conception. How do you decide that a developing infant is now a person?

If you go down the road of the functioning nervous system then you are in the unfortunate position of regarding those with severe learning disabilities and those in a persistent vegetative state as without personhood. This would mean, that those unfortunate individuals would not have the rights that we attribute to a person and we could do what we like to them, just as you propose we do to an infant before 16 weeks.

(Original post by emerset)
In all reality a sperm cell is biologically alive. It has a flagellum, it moves on it's own, it is an independent cell, and if it does not fertilise an egg it rots. Why don't you, in all logicalness, defend every sperm cell?.
A sperm cell or ovum is not a person. It is a cell and can never, ever, on its own become a human. In this they are like any other cell in the body (although they are haploid not diploid). They are special because they are the building blocks of the person, but they are not persons!

(Original post by emerset)
Because it doesn't have a brain or nervous system or thoughts or feelings, or else we'd be considered wanton murderers when we use condoms. I don't see any psychological suffering from the day after pill as well for the same reasons..
Your criteria here for not killing an organism leads, as I stated earlier, to the unfortunate position of justifying the killing of those who are in a vegetative or severely mentally disabled state. If you rely on the presence of a brain being the reason for not killing then you cannot in all conscience advocate the abortion of any infant after 8 weeks of conception.

(Original post by emerset)
I honestly think people that consider human life at conception are a bit illogical. But then again, everyone is illogical.
We are all illogical in some ways I agree. None of us are perfectly rational or wise. For example I like 80s synthesizer music. Its perfectly dreadful to the ear of trained and educated musicians or music lovers, but there we are. Illogical. Fortunately my music choice has as far as I know not resulted in any deaths.
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emerset
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#244
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#244
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
I am glad to hear it. Your reasoning, may I presume is because of the development of the nervous system? In which case do you have any logical objection against those in a vegetative state or those with a grossly abnormal nervous system being actively killed? If you do then why?

How do you decide that a developing infant is now a person?

If you go down the road of the functioning nervous system then you are in the unfortunate position of regarding those with severe learning disabilities and those in a persistent vegetative state as without personhood.
You're right in that anyone who has a completely non-functioning brain and nervous system, who cannot feel pain and is absolutely brain dead, is not a human, it a vegetable. That's my stance, but somebody with only learning disabilities obviously still has a functioning nervous system! you can't presume that I'd think that. Severe learning disabilities is entirely different than having absolutely no functioning brain.

Your criteria here for not killing an organism leads, as I stated earlier, to the unfortunate position of justifying the killing of those who are in a vegetative or severely mentally disabled state.
not severely, completely. There's a difference between slow thinking and not thinking. I don't consider myself alive if I have no connection with my nervous system. If you cut off my leg I'm still alive. If you take out a kidney I'm still alive. If I receive a mechanical or pig heart, I'm still alive. If I receive someone else's blood I'm still alive. But If my nervous system is dead, I'm a vegetable.
If you rely on the presence of a brain being the reason for not killing then you cannot in all conscience advocate the abortion of any infant after 8 weeks of conception.
8 weeks it is.


I still understand the psychological trauma inherent in the mother. Well I don't really but I can empathise. But I'm talking about ethics not about what feels right.
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Diety
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#245
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#245
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
I am glad to hear it. Your reasoning, may I presume is because of the development of the nervous system? In which case do you have any logical objection against those in a vegetative state or those with a grossly abnormal nervous system being actively killed? If you do then why?



You presume correctly. Personhood from conception. There is no other logical position that is consistent. If you attribute personhood at any other point then that is arbritary and no more logical than the point of conception. How do you decide that a developing infant is now a person?

If you go down the road of the functioning nervous system then you are in the unfortunate position of regarding those with severe learning disabilities and those in a persistent vegetative state as without personhood. This would mean, that those unfortunate individuals would not have the rights that we attribute to a person and we could do what we like to them, just as you propose we do to an infant before 16 weeks.



A sperm cell or ovum is not a person. It is a cell and can never, ever, on its own become a human. In this they are like any other cell in the body (although they are haploid not diploid). They are special because they are the building blocks of the person, but they are not persons!



Your criteria here for not killing an organism leads, as I stated earlier, to the unfortunate position of justifying the killing of those who are in a vegetative or severely mentally disabled state. If you rely on the presence of a brain being the reason for not killing then you cannot in all conscience advocate the abortion of any infant after 8 weeks of conception.



We are all illogical in some ways I agree. None of us are perfectly rational or wise. For example I like 80s synthesizer music. Its perfectly dreadful to the ear of trained and educated musicians or music lovers, but there we are. Illogical. Fortunately my music choice has as far as I know not resulted in any deaths.
I will re-post this as you are still here, in case you didn't see:

Abortion will always happen weather it is legal or not. However, if it is illegal, this will only put the mother's life in danger as well through backstreet abortions for those women who could not afford to have the operation done abroad. If you really hate abortion, don't have one but please don't go trying to change the unchangeable and creating more suffering and inequality in the process.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#246
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#246
(Original post by emerset)
You're right in that anyone who has a completely non-functioning brain and nervous system, who cannot feel pain and is absolutely brain dead, is not a human, it a vegetable. That's my stance, but somebody with only learning disabilities obviously still has a functioning nervous system! you can't presume that I'd think that. Severe learning disabilities is entirely different than having absolutely no functioning brain.


not severely, completely. There's a difference between slow thinking and not thinking. I don't consider myself alive if I have no connection with my nervous system. If you cut off my leg I'm still alive. If you take out a kidney I'm still alive. If I receive a mechanical or pig heart, I'm still alive. If I receive someone else's blood I'm still alive. But If my nervous system is dead, I'm a vegetable.


8 weeks it is.


I still understand the psychological trauma inherent in the mother. Well I don't really but I can empathise. But I'm talking about ethics not about what feels right.
I respect your position. Just an aside however, if a person is breathing independently then they have a functioning nervous system and according to your own logic should not be killed. This is the case with people in a persistent vegetative state. Therefore being a 'vegetable', which actually means appearing to have no higher brain functioning, is not sufficient criteria for killing. The usual procedure (which I support) in the UK and US is to remove the life support, if the person dies then so be it. If they continue to breathe then they are fed and hydrated artificially and cared for in every respect apart from one (with agreement of their family). This is that if they develop an infection (usually pneumonia) then they will not be treated other than to relieve symptoms and nature is allowed to take its course.

I am pleased that we have agreed on this and am pleased that you regard 8 weeks as the cutoff. That at least is something! I will concede that prior to this period the embryo will not suffer in the way that a foetus does during abortion. Prior to 8 weeks it is the principle of how we treat human life that is important, and this it seems we will differ on.
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GottaLovePhysics! :)
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#247
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#247
(Original post by Alpharius)
You made a decision at 12/13?

For Gods sake girl, you have your whole life ahead of you! You had no idea (probably still don't) regarding who you are and what you want to do with your life.
Its funny how people never say this to those who choose Christianity.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#248
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#248
(Original post by Diety)
Abortion will always happen weather it is legal or not. However, if it is illegal, this will only put the mother's life in danger as well through backstreet abortions for those women who could not afford to have the operation done abroad. If you really hate abortion, don't have one but please don't go trying to change the unchangeable and creating more suffering and inequality in the process.
Murder, theft, assault and a host of other behaviours also happen whether legal or not. This is a very poor argument for allowing abortion.

As for creating suffering and inequality it is my contention that abortion increases and maintains this suffering and inequality.

Many, many women suffer as a result of abortion from remorse, shame and guilt. Not because of any anti-abortion arguments, but because of an innate desire to protect and care for their offspring.

Women are taught that their reproduction should fit around the capitalist machine, pregnancy should not disrupt their functioning as workers, nor should it interfere material consumption (holidays, clothes, cars, household appliances etc).

Women therefore subject their natural cycles to the demands of capitalism and a form of sexual slavery - always available and without any consequences for the masters. Their natural feelings denied and subjugated to the point that some women don't even know that they have them. Tragic.

I am sure that you probably think that I am quite mad by now - even if you didn't before. However, the greatest trick that slavemasters pull is to convince their slaves that they are the ones in control. Ever heard of Stockholm syndrome? It can happen to a whole society - just investigate Carl Jung's theories of how societies end up commiting atrocities. He never heard of Stockholm syndrome ( a bit after his time), but he would have recognised it just as he recognised and correctly predicted Nazism and its consequences.
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Alpharius
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#249
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#249
(Original post by GottaLovePhysics! :))
Its funny how people never say this to those who choose Christianity.
Its funny when people quote things said months ago, too.

As an atheist, I would.
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GottaLovePhysics! :)
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#250
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#250
(Original post by Alpharius)
Its funny when people quote things said months ago, too.

As an atheist, I would.
As a atheist who likes to quote people from a long time ago, im just pointing it out.
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Hravan
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#251
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#251
I really love how anti-abortion people are always like "Oh you can just put the baby up for adoption! It's a totally reasonable comprise."

So they want to force women to go though all the crap of pregnancy, giving birth, not being able to work, pay for all the crap and then having to care for a child that they didn't want in the first place for 6 weeks just so some patriarchal squeamish people don't have to think about the poor, poor lumps of cells being aborted... They'd much rather take away the basic human rights of being in control over your own body of an already living, fully functional feeling human being just for a bunch of cells?

Here's the thing about putting a child up for adoption... You cannot put a child into the adoption system until it is 6 weeks old. It's not like those lovely American films where the adoptive parents can just take the baby as soon as it's born if the birth mother wants them to.. The birth mother HAS to keep the child for 6 weeks.

Here's an idea. Instead of insulting other people and trying to dictate to women what they should do with their own ****ing bodies, maybe put all that wasted energy into campaigning for the adoption system to be a lot fairer and easier for birth mothers who want to put their child up for adoption! :idea:

And stop trying to control other people. It's not society that's the problem. It's people who think that they know best for other people and who try to enforce their outdated, patriarchal views onto other people without a thought in hell of the effect of their actions on women who are actually already born!


I cannot stand the ****ing hypocrisy of bloody anti-abortion people. They remind me why I hate the human race so much.... Fine, have your views that abortion is wrong by all means. Don't try to force other people into it.


Would you like it if I start trying to dictate to you that you shouldn't eat meat? Would I prefer people to be vegetarian, yes I would. But do I go around spending my time trying to force other people to be vegetarian? NO! Because I know that it's their choice even though it kills me inside knowing how many millions of animals are brutally murdered just for people's tastebuds. But I have a crazy little thing call respect for other people's choices so I don't lecture, or preach or try to enforce my views... I just go along and don't take part in the practise myself and let other people get on with what they want to do... (And I also do expect other people to accept that I'm a vegetarian and not to give me grief over it because, guess what?! I don't give them grief over eating meat. )
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#252
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#252
Wow. You are so angry and bitter. I am sorry that you are in this state. It is a painful place to be. Abortion is an emotive subject - I went over the top a few posts ago.

I'd like to address a few points, although I have already dealt with some of them in earlier posts. They bear repeating as sometimes people don't read earlier posts in a thread.

(Original post by Hravan)
So they want to force women to go though all the crap of pregnancy, giving birth, not being able to work, pay for all the crap and then having to care for a child that they didn't want in the first place for 6 weeks
I am sorry that you see such a beautiful and amazing process as 'crap'. Perhaps this speaks to pain in your own life and I am genuinely sorry that you feel the way you do. It is a very dark and horrible place that you are in if your words reflect your mind.

I take it that you do not consider the lead up to, the abortion itself, and the aftermath (which is lifelong) to be 'crap'? If not, why not?

Regarding the six weeks that you refer to, this is a very precise length of time that you give? However, if a Mother states that she does not want her child and rejects it completely then the infant will be removed immediately and placed in foster care.

There are also several organisations in the UK, including LIFE, which provide substantial and ongoing support (this includes economic and practical support of course)to young Mothers who decide against abortion. This includes those going through the adoption process.

As for buying 'all the crap', apart from the organisations that I mention, actually all a newborn needs is nappies, somewhere to sleep and clothing (depending on the season several basic sleep suits and a warm all in one will do). A baby sling or even just a large piece of cloth (such as those African/Asian Mothers use) is also useful. The clothing and cloth can be bought secondhand. A newborn is happy to sleep in a cardboard box which can be got from any supermarket. As for feeding, as we're on a pagan thread I think its obvious that to save money (if nothing else) breastfeeding is easy, simple and free.

(Original post by Hravan)
just so some patriarchal squeamish people don't have to think about the poor, poor lumps of cells being aborted...
You know that it is not squeamishness. We're talking about basic philosophical attititudes to the human person. Please, if you can read my earlier posts. there you will also see that we are not talking about a 'poor, poor lump of cells'. It is far more than that. If you take a cursory glance at prenatal development and at the website of the BPAS concerning the abortion pill you will see this.

Of course I have compassion for the women. I had an abortion myself and worked in an abortion clinic. The suffering of women breaks my heart and everything I say, I say out of compassion. I am not a patriarch. You would be quite surprised by my background

(Original post by Hravan)
The birth mother HAS to keep the child for 6 weeks.
I dealt with this earlier., however again, this is very specific and surprising in its vehemence.

(Original post by Hravan)
Here's an idea. Instead of insulting other people and trying to dictate to women what they should do with their own ****ing bodies, maybe put all that wasted energy into campaigning for the adoption system to be a lot fairer and easier for birth mothers who want to put their child up for adoption!
I have never insulted women. Read my posts. What I argue against is the philosophy of abortion and the abortion industry.

I actively campaign in a number of areas, but have not come across a campaign for 'fairer' adoption. I'm not sure what this would mean.

(Original post by Hravan)
It's people who think that they know best for other people and who try to enforce their outdated, patriarchal views onto other people without a thought in hell of the effect of their actions on women .....!
See my reply above. I give a lot of thought to the women involved, and apart from the rare occasions when I become immoderate because of my passion I am considerate. As for outdated, up until the 13th Century abortion in the first trimester was not outlawed by the Church for the argument that you give (bunch of cells). It is the knowledge that we accumulate and the deeper understanding that we gain over time that leads many to oppose abortion. I refer you to your earlier statement about a 'clump of cells' which is grossly misleading.

(Original post by Hravan)
I cannot stand the ****ing hypocrisy of bloody anti-abortion people.
Please explain to me why you think that I am a hypocrite?

(Original post by Hravan)
Would you like it if I start trying to dictate to you that you shouldn't eat meat? Would I prefer people to be vegetarian, yes I would. ........ But I have a crazy little thing call respect for other people's choices so I don't lecture, or preach or try to enforce my views...
The trouble with respect for other people's choices is that it leads to very, very dark places. Where and how do you draw the line? Relativism has been shown to lead to atrocity - as you and I are finding. I suggest to you that you have the courage of your convictions and take your personal battle to those who matter. I hope that you campaign with Compassion In World Farming and took part in the recent RSPCA campaigns regarding farm animals. Clicktivism works. I love getting the emails that tell me that a campaign has been won - battery chickens, live transport of farm animals, circus animal ban. Its a great feeling.
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Teao the Cat
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#253
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#253
Don't know about anyone else, but I rather enjoyed the bit where we were all discussing the various religious and spiritual beliefs we had, and learning about new things (I know I learnt lots of things!) I've figured out who is on what side of the abortion debate here, and it seems like everyone is having to repeat themselves a bit...
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Pandora.
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#254
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#254
(Original post by Teao the Cat)
Don't know about anyone else, but I rather enjoyed the bit where we were all discussing the various religious and spiritual beliefs we had, and learning about new things (I know I learnt lots of things!) I've figured out who is on what side of the abortion debate here, and it seems like everyone is having to repeat themselves a bit...
Yes, I enjoyed that too...
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Etoile
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#255
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#255
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
You are wrong.
This is what it boils down to. You think I am wrong and I think the same of you. I don't believe a foetus is a person and I believe its soul will find a body and be born when the time is ready and better - i.e. someone who wants it, can care for it, a functioning body etc.
No, my fracture is not better yet and I hope you get over your abortion and experiences soon
I was about to say why don't you ask some Catholics this and then remembered that they don't even condone birth control so I already know the answer...


(Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
Abortion is basically the same as killing an insect.

A foetus is not a person.

It's hardly any different than an unfertilised egg, or a sperm cell.

Are you going to ban menstruation or masturbation?

^ this!
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Etoile
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#256
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#256
(Original post by Teao the Cat)
Don't know about anyone else, but I rather enjoyed the bit where we were all discussing the various religious and spiritual beliefs we had, and learning about new things (I know I learnt lots of things!) I've figured out who is on what side of the abortion debate here, and it seems like everyone is having to repeat themselves a bit...
Definitely! This is supposed to be a discussion of specifically pagan/whatever beliefs rather than the world's hottest ethical topic :rolleyes:

(Original post by Hravan)
I really love how anti-abortion people are always like "Oh you can just put the baby up for adoption! It's a totally reasonable comprise."

So they want to force women to go though all the crap of pregnancy, giving birth, not being able to work, pay for all the crap and then having to care for a child that they didn't want in the first place for 6 weeks just so some patriarchal squeamish people don't have to think about the poor, poor lumps of cells being aborted... They'd much rather take away the basic human rights of being in control over your own body of an already living, fully functional feeling human being just for a bunch of cells?

Here's the thing about putting a child up for adoption... You cannot put a child into the adoption system until it is 6 weeks old. It's not like those lovely American films where the adoptive parents can just take the baby as soon as it's born if the birth mother wants them to.. The birth mother HAS to keep the child for 6 weeks.

Here's an idea. Instead of insulting other people and trying to dictate to women what they should do with their own ****ing bodies, maybe put all that wasted energy into campaigning for the adoption system to be a lot fairer and easier for birth mothers who want to put their child up for adoption! :idea:

And stop trying to control other people. It's not society that's the problem. It's people who think that they know best for other people and who try to enforce their outdated, patriarchal views onto other people without a thought in hell of the effect of their actions on women who are actually already born!


I cannot stand the ****ing hypocrisy of bloody anti-abortion people. They remind me why I hate the human race so much.... Fine, have your views that abortion is wrong by all means. Don't try to force other people into it.


Would you like it if I start trying to dictate to you that you shouldn't eat meat? Would I prefer people to be vegetarian, yes I would. But do I go around spending my time trying to force other people to be vegetarian? NO! Because I know that it's their choice even though it kills me inside knowing how many millions of animals are brutally murdered just for people's tastebuds. But I have a crazy little thing call respect for other people's choices so I don't lecture, or preach or try to enforce my views... I just go along and don't take part in the practise myself and let other people get on with what they want to do... (And I also do expect other people to accept that I'm a vegetarian and not to give me grief over it because, guess what?! I don't give them grief over eating meat. )
I like the way you think
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Hylean
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#257
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#257
I like cheese and think pagans should stop making stuff up to suit themselves.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#258
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#258
(Original post by Hylean)
I like cheese and think pagans should stop making stuff up to suit themselves.
You see, this is what is so sad. For a person to have such a blunted capacity for feeling that they see abortion as trivial is tragic.

When I was a pagan (Wicce) I had the same reverence for life and appreciation of the natural cycle of life and death that I do now. I still thank my herbs when I harvest and reassure my plants when I am gardening, I still watch the waxing and waning of the moon and consider how this applies to our lives. I still mourn the death of all living beings (including insects) and I still recognise the enormous privilege of being born as human in this time and place. I still recognise that we each have our own paths to find and climb, but I also recognise that there are objective rights and wrongs and this is one way in whcih my faith differs from paganism.

Joanne-Eve,

First of all your assertion that the infant has a soul shocks me profoundly. This shows that you are condoning the murder of a person - I believed that you were arguing along with one or two others that the infant is nothing but a clump of cells prior to birth. Think about it. This infant has a soul with everything that means.

Second of all the idea that the soul of the infant will 'find another body to be born in' is an unhappy one. In your philosophy this soul chose that Mother. That is an active choice - the infant being killed 'wanted' to be with her and to be raised by her. Terribly sad.

If your next assertion is that 'Well the soul must have been chosen to be aborted' then you are in more trouble as this argument can be used to justify anything in the world i.e:
I stabbed her, but she must have chosen that in her life. Therefore I am not responsible because of this choice and also my (pre birth) choice to be a murderer.

She's sick/drug addicted/disabled/abused, she must have chosen it as her life's path. (Therefore she is responsible and I am not obliged to help.)

This argument leads to profound apathy in the world and is similar to the cruel Buddhist teaching that those suffering in this life are working off their karma. This means that we have no responsibility to help and they are more to be blamed than pitied as they must have awful, bad people in their previous lives.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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I am still waiting for a coherent pagan argument that justifies abortion. To summarise so far I have had eugenic, economic, philosophical (personhood) and a woman's right to choose (still not fully explored), but no pagan argument(s).

Does this mean that abortion is inconsistent with paganism which is what I asserted originally and has so far not been refuted?

Several of you say how you want to discuss paganism, but so far.......
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Hylean
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(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
I am still waiting for a coherent pagan argument that justifies abortion. To summarise so far I have had eugenic, economic, philosophical (personhood) and a woman's right to choose (still not fully explored), but no pagan argument(s).

Does this mean that abortion is inconsistent with paganism which is what I asserted originally and has so far not been refuted?

Several of you say how you want to discuss paganism, but so far.......
I can't be assed arguing with you, to be honest. You make the assumption that it is incompatible with paganism, but why? Where does it state that abortion is against the tenants of paganism? Paganism, which originally involved human sacrifice and cannibalism? Paganism isn't about reverence for life and nature, it's about finding the divine in nature, and accepting the good and bad. As I've repeatedly told you, abortion drugs have existed for millenia and as they exist in nature, without need for anything else, that would suggest it is fine. You ignored this argument by rattling on about miscarriages and abortions being different, which is when I stopped paying too much attention to you. You also attempted to cut off one of the arguments: that death is an inherent part of nature. You can't start a debate and then just go, "by the way, you can't use this argument because I don't like it". You're approaching abortion from an emotional and philosophical stand-point, neither of which is taking it from a pagan viewpoint.

Again, why should abortion not work with paganism? Pagans aborted babies for millenia by enducing miscarriages and you think you know better than they what paganism can and cannot include? Go away and take your sanctimonious bull**** elsewhere, please.

Paganism isn't just one solidifed religion, there are multiple paths, cults and beliefs found within it. This means pagans can worship death, etc. and quite happily kill babies, etc. More than that, the idea of a soul is generally a troublesome point when it comes to European paganism, so the idea of a baby's life beginning at conception is a detail that was never dealt with in the original religions and thus has been greatly influenced by Christianity in the reconstructions, some of which rip the **** out of the original source material.

Come back when you've done more research on what paganism actually is, please. It's not just what you've decided it to be.
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