TSR Pagan Society

I am glad to hear it. Your reasoning, may I presume is because of the development of the nervous system? In which case do you have any logical objection against those in a vegetative state or those with a grossly abnormal nervous system being actively killed? If you do then why?



You presume correctly. Personhood from conception. There is no other logical position that is consistent. If you attribute personhood at any other point then that is arbritary and no more logical than the point of conception. How do you decide that a developing infant is now a person?

If you go down the road of the functioning nervous system then you are in the unfortunate position of regarding those with severe learning disabilities and those in a persistent vegetative state as without personhood. This would mean, that those unfortunate individuals would not have the rights that we attribute to a person and we could do what we like to them, just as you propose we do to an infant before 16 weeks.



A sperm cell or ovum is not a person. It is a cell and can never, ever, on its own become a human. In this they are like any other cell in the body (although they are haploid not diploid). They are special because they are the building blocks of the person, but they are not persons!



Your criteria here for not killing an organism leads, as I stated earlier, to the unfortunate position of justifying the killing of those who are in a vegetative or severely mentally disabled state. If you rely on the presence of a brain being the reason for not killing then you cannot in all conscience advocate the abortion of any infant after 8 weeks of conception.



We are all illogical in some ways I agree. None of us are perfectly rational or wise. For example I like 80s synthesizer music. Its perfectly dreadful to the ear of trained and educated musicians or music lovers, but there we are. Illogical. Fortunately my music choice has as far as I know not resulted in any deaths.

You made a decision at 12/13?

For Gods sake girl, you have your whole life ahead of you! You had no idea (probably still don't) regarding who you are and what you want to do with your life.

Abortion will always happen weather it is legal or not. However, if it is illegal, this will only put the mother's life in danger as well through backstreet abortions for those women who could not afford to have the operation done abroad. If you really hate abortion, don't have one but please don't go trying to change the unchangeable and creating more suffering and inequality in the process.

Its funny how people never say this to those who choose Christianity.

Its funny when people quote things said months ago, too.

As an atheist, I would.

So they want to force women to go though all the crap of pregnancy, giving birth, not being able to work, pay for all the crap and then having to care for a child that they didn't want in the first place for 6 weeks

just so some patriarchal squeamish people don't have to think about the poor, poor lumps of cells being aborted...

The birth mother HAS to keep the child for 6 weeks.

Here's an idea. Instead of insulting other people and trying to dictate to women what they should do with their own ****ing bodies, maybe put all that wasted energy into campaigning for the adoption system to be a lot fairer and easier for birth mothers who want to put their child up for adoption!

It's people who think that they know best for other people and who try to enforce their outdated, patriarchal views onto other people without a thought in hell of the effect of their actions on women .....!

I cannot stand the ****ing hypocrisy of bloody anti-abortion people.

Would you like it if I start trying to dictate to you that you shouldn't eat meat? Would I prefer people to be vegetarian, yes I would. ........ But I have a crazy little thing call respect for other people's choices so I don't lecture, or preach or try to enforce my views...

Don't know about anyone else, but I rather enjoyed the bit where we were all discussing the various religious and spiritual beliefs we had, and learning about new things (I know I learnt lots of things!) I've figured out who is on what side of the abortion debate here, and it seems like everyone is having to repeat themselves a bit...

You are wrong.

Abortion is basically the same as killing an insect.

A foetus is not a person.

It's hardly any different than an unfertilised egg, or a sperm cell.

Are you going to ban menstruation or masturbation?

Don't know about anyone else, but I rather enjoyed the bit where we were all discussing the various religious and spiritual beliefs we had, and learning about new things (I know I learnt lots of things!) I've figured out who is on what side of the abortion debate here, and it seems like everyone is having to repeat themselves a bit...

I really love how anti-abortion people are always like "Oh you can just put the baby up for adoption! It's a totally reasonable comprise."

So they want to force women to go though all the crap of pregnancy, giving birth, not being able to work, pay for all the crap and then having to care for a child that they didn't want in the first place for 6 weeks just so some patriarchal squeamish people don't have to think about the poor, poor lumps of cells being aborted... They'd much rather take away the basic human rights of being in control over your own body of an already living, fully functional feeling human being just for a bunch of cells?

Here's the thing about putting a child up for adoption... You cannot put a child into the adoption system until it is 6 weeks old. It's not like those lovely American films where the adoptive parents can just take the baby as soon as it's born if the birth mother wants them to.. The birth mother HAS to keep the child for 6 weeks.

Here's an idea. Instead of insulting other people and trying to dictate to women what they should do with their own ****ing bodies, maybe put all that wasted energy into campaigning for the adoption system to be a lot fairer and easier for birth mothers who want to put their child up for adoption!

And stop trying to control other people. It's not society that's the problem. It's people who think that they know best for other people and who try to enforce their outdated, patriarchal views onto other people without a thought in hell of the effect of their actions on women who are actually already born!


I cannot stand the ****ing hypocrisy of bloody anti-abortion people. They remind me why I hate the human race so much.... Fine, have your views that abortion is wrong by all means. Don't try to force other people into it.


Would you like it if I start trying to dictate to you that you shouldn't eat meat? Would I prefer people to be vegetarian, yes I would. But do I go around spending my time trying to force other people to be vegetarian? NO! Because I know that it's their choice even though it kills me inside knowing how many millions of animals are brutally murdered just for people's tastebuds. But I have a crazy little thing call respect for other people's choices so I don't lecture, or preach or try to enforce my views... I just go along and don't take part in the practise myself and let other people get on with what they want to do... (And I also do expect other people to accept that I'm a vegetarian and not to give me grief over it because, guess what?! I don't give them grief over eating meat. )

I like cheese and think pagans should stop making stuff up to suit themselves.

I am still waiting for a coherent pagan argument that justifies abortion. To summarise so far I have had eugenic, economic, philosophical (personhood) and a woman's right to choose (still not fully explored), but no pagan argument(s).

Does this mean that abortion is inconsistent with paganism which is what I asserted originally and has so far not been refuted?

Several of you say how you want to discuss paganism, but so far.......

I can't be assed arguing with you, to be honest. You make the assumption that it is incompatible with paganism, but why? Where does it state that abortion is against the tenants of paganism? Paganism, which originally involved human sacrifice and cannibalism? Paganism isn't about reverence for life and nature, it's about finding the divine in nature, and accepting the good and bad. As I've repeatedly told you, abortion drugs have existed for millenia and as they exist in nature, without need for anything else, that would suggest it is fine. You ignored this argument by rattling on about miscarriages and abortions being different, which is when I stopped paying too much attention to you. You also attempted to cut off one of the arguments: that death is an inherent part of nature. You can't start a debate and then just go, "by the way, you can't use this argument because I don't like it". You're approaching abortion from an emotional and philosophical stand-point, neither of which is taking it from a pagan viewpoint.

Again, why should abortion not work with paganism? Pagans aborted babies for millenia by enducing miscarriages and you think you know better than they what paganism can and cannot include? Go away and take your sanctimonious bull**** elsewhere, please.

Paganism isn't just one solidifed religion, there are multiple paths, cults and beliefs found within it. This means pagans can worship death, etc. and quite happily kill babies, etc. More than that, the idea of a soul is generally a troublesome point when it comes to European paganism, so the idea of a baby's life beginning at conception is a detail that was never dealt with in the original religions and thus has been greatly influenced by Christianity in the reconstructions, some of which rip the **** out of the original source material.

Come back when you've done more research on what paganism actually is, please. It's not just what you've decided it to be.