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What percentage of blame, if at all any, rests with the victim during rape? Watch

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    (Original post by jammy4041)
    I saw an article in the Guardian which suggest that 'lad culture' was intrinsically linked with 'rape culture'. So, read' UniLAD, LADBible, Page3' etc...which at the core, use the objectification of women to gain likes, shares or sell copies. The argument follows that the more women become seen as objects, serious crimes like sexual assault and rape etc. become trivialised.
    This part just caught my eye.

    What exactly do you mean by "the objectification of women"? Now, maybe LADBible and other stupid pages are run by males, but the Sun is run by males and females. In addition, it is my understanding that the girls who go in these magazines are completely willing to do so. I am not disagreeing with you, I am just curious as to what you mean by "the objectification of women"?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    The reason is historical definition. Are you seriously claiming that a woman forcibly penetrating a man with a dildo is less bad than rape?



    Sorry, I should have written 0.2% (i.e. 1 in 500... hardly common)



    Do you even know the meaning of the word privilege?



    Are you confused about what a Y-chromosome is, or are you confused about your gender?

    Well, arguably yes considering a) the man isn't going to get pregnant (not that that's a risk in all cases of rape), and b) it doesn't form part of an oppresive patriarchal society to which we are all subjected, but regardless that is not the point. These make up a tiny minority of sexual assault cases, most of which are clearly less serious than rape (whilst still being abhorrent).

    Okay, still, where did you get that from? Because every suggested figure I've seen has been far above even that, which is still a hundred times bigger than what you originally claimed.

    Yep Do you?

    And neither, I'm a perfectly happy and confident transgender woman
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    (Original post by jammy4041)
    Page3' etc...which at the core, use the objectification of women to gain likes, shares or sell copies. The argument follows that the more women become seen as objects, serious crimes like sexual assault and rape etc. become trivialised.
    That is absolute nonsense. The idea that merely showing some breast and fanny trivialises or leads to rape or sexual assault is completely unsupported by evidence, this is a claim commonly made by feminist activists with little scientific or scholarly evidence.

    Are you going to similarly claim that gay guys looking at naked dudes and bare arses leads to gay rape? Or the trivialisation of gay rape?
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    (Original post by Ade9000)
    Also, while rape jokes are bad in taste, I don't see how they trivialize rape. Unless you want insist that jokes about murder, violence and racism trivialize the issues.
    Honestly, if you think telling a joke about rape or racial abuse to someone who has suffered either would not trivialise the issue and make them uncomfortable i find that a bit weird.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Well, arguably yes considering a) the man isn't going to get pregnant (not that that's a risk in all cases of rape), and b) it doesn't form part of an oppresive patriarchal society to which we are all subjected
    I find that claim deeply offensive. Given that a raped woman can be guaranteed she won't get pregnant from a rape, it seems like you are just looking for excuses to say that women have it worse than men in all cases, even when a man suffers a terrible, traumatic crime that is undoubtedly equally violating as a rape.

    Okay, still, where did you get that from? Because every suggested figure I've seen has been far above even that, which is still a hundred times bigger than what you originally claimed.
    What do you mean every figure is far above that? You provided the 70,000 figure. 70,000 over the number of women in the UK (about 32 million) gives you your result.

    Yep Do you?
    Yes, it is a special right or immunity granted to a particular group. Given that rape is harshly punished in our society, it is obviously bogus to claim that it is a privilege.

    And neither, I'm a perfectly happy and confident transgender woman
    Fair enough.

    Out of interest, are you aware that even harder-core feminists than you claim that transgender women can't be truly considerd women because they are not "womyn-born", that they are minstrelising females? I'm not saying this to be provocative or mean, merely to point out how cruel and exclusionary much of the feminist activist world is, and how much that feeling drives their positions on such things.

    This is precisely the same impulse that led the lesbian feminist separatist to demand that all men leave the audience in the 2012 Feminist Film Festival.
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    0%. End of. Fed up of people making stupid threads like this.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I find that claim deeply offensive. Given that a raped woman can be guaranteed she won't get pregnant from a rape, it seems like you are just looking for excuses to say that women have it worse than men in all cases, even when a man suffers a terrible, traumatic crime that is undoubtedly equally violating as a rape.



    What do you mean every figure is far above that? You provided the 70,000 figure. 70,000 over the number of women in the UK (about 32 million) gives you your result.



    Yes, it is a special right or immunity granted to a particular group. Given that rape is harshly punished in our society, it is obviously bogus to claim that it is a privilege.




    Fair enough.

    Out of interest, are you aware that even harder-core feminists than you claim that transgender women can't be truly considerd women because they are not "womyn-born", that they are minstrelising females? I'm not saying this to be provocative or mean, merely to point out how cruel and exclusionary much of the feminist activist world is, and how much that feeling drives their positions on such things.

    This is precisely the same impulse that led the lesbian feminist separatist to demand that all men leave the audience in the 2012 Feminist Film Festival.
    That'd be 70,000 each year. 4.6% of women aged 16-59 have been a victim since the age of 16. Add in all the women in that group who will be raped later in life as well as those raped before the age of 16 and you could well be looking at 10% who are raped in their lifetimes. Or you could take the mathematical approach looking to the future, and estimate that if we continue with 0.2% of women each year being raped with a life expectancy of circa 80 and accounting for the fact that some will be raped multiple times, and you're looking at a 15% likelihood for a girl born today. And that's excluding all the serious sexual assaults you wanted to count for me!

    It's also patently false to claim rape is "harshly punished" when only approximately 1.5% of cases actually end in conviction. The shocking truth is that the vast, vast majority of rapists get away scot-free.

    I'm all too aware of it I'm afraid However, from my experience that seems to be a shrinking minority of people within the feminist movement. Really, it makes little sense for a "feminist" to take the position that you are defined solely by what genitals you're born with and that should definite your role and actions in life! I don't know of any feminist societies at British universities, for instance, that exclude men who want to be members, let alone transgender women or others who are intersex or gender non-conforming
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    That is absolute nonsense. The idea that merely showing some breast and fanny trivialises or leads to rape or sexual assault is completely unsupported by evidence, this is a claim commonly made by feminist activists with little scientific or scholarly evidence.

    Are you going to similarly claim that gay guys looking at naked dudes and bare arses leads to gay rape? Or the trivialisation of gay rape?
    If you read the bottom of the post...:rolleyes:

    But I would disagree with that premise. It's a slippery slope. I need not mention that the overwhelming majority of their readership wouldn't then rape a woman.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    It's also patently false to claim rape is "harshly punished" when only approximately 1.5% of cases actually end in conviction. The shocking truth is that the vast, vast majority of rapists get away scot-free.
    That is a nonsense figure, and a lie regularly propagated by the feminist community. They take the number of notional rapes that occur nationally (which is incredibly difficult to substantiate and is basically guesswork, albeit educated guesswork) and compare it to the number of convictions.

    Of course this is incredibly methodologically unsound because there are many reasons why someone might not be convicted. For example, if they are innocent. Did that occur to you? Or is everyone accused of rape guilty?

    And there are good reasons why the police may not proceed to charge someone, including if they determine that the allegation is a false allegation. The "1.5%" figure you have asserted would axiomatically include rape accusations that have been proven to be false allegations in your tally of rapists that got off "scot-free"

    This automatically renders the figure untrustworthy
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    That is a nonsense figure, and a lie regularly propagated by the feminist community. They take the number of notional rapes that occur nationally (which is incredibly difficult to substantiate and is basically guesswork, albeit educated guesswork) and compare it to the number of convictions.

    Of course this is incredibly methodologically unsound because there are many reasons why someone might not be convicted. For example, if they are innocent. Did that occur to you? Or is everyone accused of rape guilty?

    And there are good reasons why the police may not proceed to charge someone, including if they determine that the allegation is a false allegation. The "1.5%" figure you have asserted would axiomatically include rape accusations that have been proven to be false allegations in your tally of rapists that got off "scot-free"

    This automatically renders the figure untrustworthy
    It's based on estimates from the Ministry of Justice, Home Office and Office for National Statistics that you were very happy to accept before. Obviously they're not perfect, hence the wide range of the estimate of 60,000 to 95,000 with a 95% confidence. This takes account of the fact that a small number of accusations are false. I don't see how you can accuse the feminist community of "lying" for using official statistics that were carefully collaborated over a long period of time and don't pretend to be exact?

    The figure, based on the most likely numbers, is around 1.5%. Maybe it's 1%, maybe it's 2%. Heck, we could go mad, say the figures are massively, massively out, and imagine it's as high as 5 or even 10%. That still leaves the vast majority of rapists getting away with it, which is about as far from "harshly punished" as you can imagine.
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    (Original post by lppm)
    I think 'rape culture' is perhaps too provocative a term - maybe macho male dominated / rife with casual misogyny culture is more apt. I'm male, and to be honest it's something i didn't really notice until last year - that's not because it only started happening, but because it's so engrained in our society. What i mean is not a culture of people physically going out and raping women (which does happen), but an attitude towards women which is pervasive. It's asking school girls to stop wearing skirts because it distracts boys, a tennis commentator talking about how a women player must have to train harder because "she's not a looker", toy shops marketing science and technology at boys and pink fluffy kitchen orientated things at girls, the blatant sexualisation of women's bodies from a young age, boys (and girls) at school making rape jokes, and then the MET deleting details of sex (and racial) discrimination against female detectives etc etc i could go on. These are all parts of a much more fundamental and systemic problem (how we see and treat women). And it's the cumulation of these that leads to the culture we're currently buried in. Sadly one of the effects of this is not only the rape of women, but the trivialisation of the act.



    I have to disagree with this, because in a way it gets to a fundamental point of the issue. It doesn't matter what anyone is wearing.



    I'm not here to educate you, partly because i don't have the time and partly because you come across as boorish with your opinion pretty much set in stone already.

    This is not to do with class. I'm not talking about power in the sense of employment but in terms of their position within our society. So yes, the working class man has more power than an upper class women (whatever working class and upper class mean) because he's a man. It's a gender issue, not where they work... i would have thought that was obvious. I'm not saying a successful women isn't powerful, of course she is. But they'll still talk about how she looks and where her dress is from. I'm talking about the fundamental sense of entitlement a large part (not all) of the male population feel they have over women, their bodies, their opinions, and their decision making. If you don't see this as something that is rampant in our society then it's worse than i thought.
    You really think a working-class man has more power than an upper-class woman, despite her, you know, power, simply because you feel the latter is judged on her looks ... listen to yourself, really. I don't know where to start with that one.

    What's the intended audience for the celebrity gossip pages where they talk about how she looks and where her dress is from?

    Oh yeah, it's other women.

    I couldn't care less whether Kate Middleton last stepped out in a twinset and pearls or a curry-stained hoody, much less judge her for it, but it seems there is a very large market for a lot of women to do both.

    I expect you will find some way to make out that it's all men's fault and that they use some kind of black magic to manipulate the poor, innocent women into judging each other. Trust me, we've got much more important things to be getting on with than that.

    (This is not to say I disagree with much of the rest of your post in response to the other guy.)
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    It's based on estimates from the Ministry of Justice, Home Office and Office for National Statistics that you were very happy to accept before. Obviously they're not perfect, hence the wide range of the estimate of 60,000 to 95,000 with a 95% confidence. This takes account of the fact that a small number of accusations are false. I don't see how you can accuse the feminist community of "lying" for using official statistics that were carefully collaborated over a long period of time and don't pretend to be exact?
    The Home Office doesn't provide the 1.5% figure, they provide the "total number of rapes" figure from which you extrapolate based on numbers of convictions. Please provide me with the specific numbers you based your calculation on.
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    (Original post by lppm)
    Honestly, if you think telling a joke about rape or racial abuse to someone who has suffered either would not trivialise the issue and make them uncomfortable i find that a bit weird.
    So then do you concede that we trivialize murder, theft and other crimes? I'm not advocating for telling rape jokes to rape victims but how does it trivialize rape, if we don't complain about jokes on murder etc...
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    . You have the privilege of not having to worry about rape, because you are men..
    You want to try that again?
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    You have the privilege of not having to worry about rape, because you are men.
    I propose you go and look up the stats, may not be as severe as for females, but there is still A LOT of males being raped.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I propose you go and look up the stats, may not be as severe as for females, but there is still A LOT of males being raped.
    I propose you read the rest of the thread.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    I propose you read the rest of the thread.
    Do you actually mean the thread, or just the post?
 
 
 
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