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Is anyone going to protest for Palestine?! (In London or Birmingham) Watch

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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So why did the British invite the UN (made up of MS) to determine what happens to a group of people which these far flung countries had no interest in?



    We need to add logical processing problems to that list.

    Racking up quite a list, eh?
    Because it wasn't a national election (as I previously told you...) it was a question of nationhood and The United Nations, ​deals with matters of nationhood...
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Because it wasn't a national election (as I previously told you...) it was a question of nationhood and The United Nations, ​deals with matters of nationhood...
    You seem to be intentionally playing the stupid card.

    Why did the British not allow the Arabs/Palestinians to determine their own future and involve the UN?

    Was the UN involved in India, Pakistan, Australia, or Africa or any number of countries which it decided to leave?

    Why in those countries they decided to listen to the views of the people in that land as opposed to the international communities?

    I really didn't want to but I felt you were just being intentionally stupid so well done on getting yourself a facepalm.:facepalm2:
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I'm not arguing that one or other's claim to the land is more just. That is largely a matter of opinion and I, as an atheist Englishman, have no emotional involvement in the irredentism of either Jews or Muslim Arabs.

    The reality is that Israel is the stronger party. If there is an unrestrained conflict between the two on any point, Israel prevails, not the Gaza Strip or West Bank. So the Gaza Strip and West Bank have to decide whether they want to continue their irredentist war, or accept peace on terms that would allow them to live quite, safe, and productive lives, but give up the land.

    As best I can tell they consistently, deliberately choose the former, so they must accept the consequences.
    So if you allowed a person into your home and he took over half of your home and not content with that, he subjected you to curfews and dictated what you can eat and destroyed parts of your house as well as bringing his cousins over to live at your home permanently, you are telling me you would accept whatever terms this home invader dictated to you?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You seem to be intentionally playing the stupid card.

    Why did the British not allow the Arabs/Palestinians to determine their own future and involve the UN?
    Because there was a Jewish side, in case you didn't remember...

    I don't understand what you are suggesting, that Arabs should be allowed to operate outside of UN scrutiny?

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Was the UN involved in India, Pakistan, Australia, or Africa or any number of countries which it decided to leave?
    Well to become a nation, you have to apply to the U.N. (The United Nations, if you recall), so yeah they probably did that considering they are nations now.

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Why in those countries they decided to listen to the views of the people in that land as opposed to the international communities?
    The international community did play a role in the partition of India, so I have no clue why you are constantly whining and claiming everyone is against you and/or the Palestinians

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I really didn't want to but I felt you were just being intentionally stupid so well done on getting yourself a facepalm.:facepalm2:
    I don't think you are in a position to call me stupid when you look back over this exchange...

    :rofl:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So if you allowed a person into your home and he took over half of your home and not content with that, he subjected you to curfews and dictated what you can eat and destroyed parts of your house as well as bringing his cousins over to live at your home permanently, you are telling me you would accept whatever terms this home invader dictated to you?
    The British government has the power to seize my home and if it chose to do so I would be forced to comply. It's very unlikely I would retaliate by planting a bomb on a school bus or by firing a rocket in the vague direction of Whitehall. The reason is that the British government could do me much more damage if it chose, and I have no actual ability to defeat it.

    Now it seems to me that Palestinians have three reasonable options that would allow them to live in peace: first, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for citizenship of Israel; second, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for organised resettlement in Egypt and Jordan; third, becoming two independent states with their current de-facto controlled territory as their accepted permanent borders.

    None of these happen, ultimately, because Palestinians prefer to maintain their irredentism claims than to live quite, safe, and productive lives in peace. And the root cause of this is ethno-religious fanaticism.
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    (Original post by DeemzBeamz)
    Israel steals land (1948) and makes hundreds of thousands refugees.
    Israel commits massacres against villagers and wipes out over 400 villages (1946-1949)
    Israel occupies the remaining land (1967) and makes many people refugees again
    Israel builds settlements (1967)
    Israel kills lebanese (1982 and 2006)
    Hamas is formed as a retaliation (1987)
    Suicide bombings begin and last up until 2006
    Gaza is under siege and still is for over 8 years
    Whilst the siege is implemented israel thinks it can get away with targeting palestinian civilians in gaza aswell as hamas militants which violates the terms of the ceasefire
    Hamas fires rockets into Israel
    Israel retaliates by massacring entire families and blowing the heads of children
    Israel blames hamas

    Please stfu and keep things in context.


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    Boring :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    And these children (4) who have just been hit with an Israeli strike:

    *

    "Behind the smoke, I see four figures running, silhouettes whose legs are pumping raggedly. From their size it is clear they are a man and three young boys.
    Only afterwards do we discover there are four others who are dead, all children, lying on the wall. I am shown a picture of one of the dead boys, his skin scorched and bruised. Their names are released later: Ahed Bakr, aged 10; Zakaria, 10; and two other boys from the Bakr family, both named Mohammad, aged 11 and nine.
    The second shell catches the survivors as they reach the brightly coloured tents. As it explodes, my colleagues, now standing by the terrace wall, shout at unseen Israeli gunners who can't hear them: "They are only children."
    The children are brought up. Pulling up the T-shirt of the first boy, who looks about eight years old, we find a shrapnel hole, small and round as a pencil head, where he has been hit in the chest over the second rib.
    The boy cries in pain as we clean and dress the wound, wrapping a field dressing around his chest, pressing to staunch the bleeding. He winces in pain, and he is clearly embarrassed too as a colleague checks his shorts to look for unseen femoral bleeding.
    A waiter grabs a table cloth to use as a stretcher, but a photographer takes the boy in his arms to carry him to the ambulance that has arrived.
    In less than 10 minutes it is over. Even the smoke on the pier has died away, save for a last few drifting wisps." - Source



    And their funeral procession which is currently happening right now:



    Not only applauding but glorifying the killing of these young children and calling them terrorists who will go to hell. Sickening. Absolutely sickening.


    EDIT: To include the what appears to be the airstrike photo. Not confirmed...
    Hamas will own up to have killed them, they do that a lot by using them as human shields.

    An Israeli man has died

    http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prote...asefire-362839
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    (Original post by Diamante06)
    You are so pathetic and narrow-minded! Gaza is NOT made of just terrorists, we are talking about INNOCENT people here. Lots of terrorists have originated from Israel itself through the Zionist movement. Imagine having your homeland and even basic human rights ripped away from you. Just in case you have forgotten, terrorists use unauthorised violence and intimidation which Israel have used and shown numerously. You'll probably reply back saying well done Israel blah blah blah because it appears your hatred is far higher than the amount of sympathy and understanding you have.
    Peace.
    You have so much hatred for Israel.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The British government has the power to seize my home and if it chose to do so I would be forced to comply. It's very unlikely I would retaliate by planting a bomb on a school bus or by firing a rocket in the vague direction of Whitehall. The reason is that the British government could do me much more damage if it chose, and I have no actual ability to defeat it.
    Though I do not agree with Palestine's method of retaliation, I can understand their anguish of being forced to accept Israel after Israel was given 55% of the land unjustly which has now increased to almost 80%. I think it's a bit sad for many to want Palestine to give in, when the real issue is the Israeli control of occupied territories
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    You have so much hatred for Israel.
    I don't hate Israel. I just don't agree of their history and there government's unjust treatment of the Palestinian people that once welcomed them in there homeland.
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Because there was a Jewish side, in case you didn't remember...

    I don't understand what you are suggesting, that Arabs should be allowed to operate outside of UN scrutiny?
    Clearly, they would also have been involved. It's not like anyone was going to exclude them.

    Well to become a nation, you have to apply to the U.N. (The United Nations, if you recall), so yeah they probably did that considering they are nations now.
    You can become a state without UN approval. Recognition is another matter.

    The international community did play a role in the partition of India, so I have no clue why you are constantly whining and claiming everyone is against you and/or the Palestinians
    Did the UN determine the partition of India? If so, could you link me to the source?

    I don't think you are in a position to call me stupid when you look back over this exchange...

    :rofl:
    You don't seem to be doing much to change that perception. In fact, you are just digging a deeper hole...
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    (Original post by Diamante06)
    Though I do not agree with Palestine's method of retaliation, I can understand their anguish of being forced to accept Israel after Israel was given 55% of the land unjustly which has now increased to almost 80%. I think it's a bit sad for many to want Palestine to give in, when the real issue is the Israeli control of occupied territories
    As I indicated before, this is just an emotional attachment to their irredentist nationalism. Personally I think it is bizarre, almost depraved, to be a nationalist for someone else's country. Nationalism is a mental disease, and while it can be excused in those who were infected in the womb, it's less excusable to deliberately infect oneself.

    The question, to my mind, is would the lives of Palestinians be worse if they became citizens of Israel, or if they became citizens of Egypt or Jordan, or if they accepted coexistence with Israel within their current borders? And I see no possible answer to that other than no. Alternatively, can they actually defeat Israel and impose their own settlement? Again, no. So their current policy is irrationally self-destructive.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The British government has the power to seize my home and if it chose to do so I would be forced to comply. It's very unlikely I would retaliate by planting a bomb on a school bus or by firing a rocket in the vague direction of Whitehall. The reason is that the British government could do me much more damage if it chose, and I have no actual ability to defeat it.

    Now it seems to me that Palestinians have three reasonable options that would allow them to live in peace: first, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for citizenship of Israel; second, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for organised resettlement in Egypt and Jordan; third, becoming two independent states with their current de-facto controlled territory as their accepted permanent borders.

    None of these happen, ultimately, because Palestinians prefer to maintain their irredentism claims than to live quite, safe, and productive lives in peace. And the root cause of this is ethno-religious fanaticism.
    No one is talking about the British government. We are talking about Joe Blogg from across the street who has effectively taken over your home whilst the authorities do nothing. Are you telling me that you will lap it up?

    It's okay. You don't have to answer. Your long winded response to my simple question tells me all I need to know...
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    Hamas will own up to have killed them, they do that a lot by using them as human shields.

    An Israeli man has died

    http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prote...asefire-362839
    Name:  IP_conflict_deaths_total.png
Views: 31
Size:  215.3 KB

    It's sad when any innocent person dies, regardless of where they live.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    No one is talking about the British government. We are talking about Joe Blogg from across the street who has effectively taken over your home whilst the authorities do nothing. Are you telling me that you will lap it up?

    It's okay. You don't have to answer. Your long winded response to my simple question tells me all I need to know...
    I can defeat Joe Bloggs, because the British state will support me and it has overwhelming military supremacy over Joe Bloggs. It's therefore perfectly rational for me to oppose him. Palestine does not have overwhelming military supremacy over Israel, quite the contrary. So, my analogy was more accurate. We are forced to do things we don't want to by governments all the time; the optimal response is almost never to violently resist.
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    Hamas will own up to have killed them, they do that a lot by using them as human shields.
    Have they used human shields in the past in recent conflicts?

    An Israeli man has died
    I just read that an Israeli died and there wasn't so many headlines about it. Would you happen to know if he was a civilian?

    I have already covered this in the Official Thread.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Clearly, they would also have been involved. It's not like anyone was going to exclude them.
    Go on, tell me what your proposal would have been

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You can become a state without UN approval. Recognition is another matter.
    A state isn't a physical object, it by definition, needs to be recognised for it to exist

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Did the UN determine the partition of India? If so, could you link me to the source?
    The British did a lot to determine the how it was partitioned, so your idea that Palestine is the only place where the international community involves itself is totally false

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You don't seem to be doing much to change that perception. In fact, you are just digging a deeper hole...
    Says the guy who thinks states can exist without recognition...
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I can defeat Joe Bloggs, because the British state will support me and it has overwhelming military supremacy over Joe Bloggs. It's therefore perfectly rational for me to oppose him. Palestine does not have overwhelming military supremacy over Israel, quite the contrary. So, my analogy was more accurate. We are forced to do things we don't want to by governments all the time; the optimal response is almost never to violently resist.
    But if they don't resist, then the Israeli government can carry on building settlements in peace, no?

    I mean, there has not been one condemnation from any Western government (Correct me if I'm wrong) about the civilian deaths.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    But if they don't resist, then the Israeli government can carry on building settlements in peace, no?
    So what? There are "immigrant settlements" in Britain, too. Doesn't sound so neutral a description when put like that, does it?
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Go on, tell me what your proposal would have been
    One land = One state.

    A state isn't a physical object, it by definition, needs to be recognised for it to exist
    It can exist without recognition. Look at ISIS and their plan for a state. They believe they have a state which is at the moment, unrecognized.

    In order for a state to be recognized, it needs to exist. In order to exist, it needs land.

    You can't have a state without land but you can have a state without recognition.

    The British did a lot to determine the how it was partitioned, so your idea that Palestine is the only place where the international community involves itself is totally false
    I asked for a link to the UN and the Partition of India. Where is that link?

    Says the guy who thinks states can exist without recognition...
    I think this will come to bit you in the ass later...
 
 
 
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