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James Milibanter
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#241
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#241
(Original post by DiddyDec)
I have read the whole article and it does not mention the exact same jobs. It does mentions those working in the same sectors, but not the exact same job.

By exact I mean working for the same company, for the same hours and the same job title. Not two jobs at different companies with the same job title.
does it matter, the pay gap proves gender equality. Do you dare to refute that?
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DiddyDec
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#242
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#242
(Original post by James Milibanter)
does it matter, the pay gap proves gender equality. Do you dare to refute that?
Yes. But I'm not going into that now. I'm going to bed.
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Birkenhead
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#243
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#243
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Well fine I concede. It is not saying the exact same thing, however, it does show gender inequality. I have my facts and figures to back that up, do you have any figures to disprove it?
Your facts and figures don't support what you're saying.

What you have to understand is that inequality is not an inherently bad thing. It has no inherent moral value at all. What would be bad would be if men were being given preferential treatment over women in pay or career advancement. The fact that men are generally more successful than women in the world of work is not evidence of this being the case.
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James Milibanter
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#244
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#244
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Yes. But I'm not going into that now. I'm going to bed.
Well, if your argument is that it's their own fault then good luck finding any facts to back that up.
and also, keep it to yourself.
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James Milibanter
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#245
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#245
(Original post by Birkenhead)
Your facts and figures don't support what you're saying.

What you have to understand is that inequality is not an inherently bad thing. It has no inherent moral value at all. What would be bad would be if men were being given preferential treatment over women in pay or career advancement. The fact that men are generally more successful than women in the world of work is not evidence of this being the case.
"A man is selected for hire over a woman; fewer women reach tenure track positions; there’s a gender gap in publications."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/

"According to TNS Research Surveys, 68 percent of women surveyed believe gender discrimination exists in the workplace."
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/effects-gender-discrimination-workplace-2860.html

why do you think that men are generally more successful than women in the world of work? is that fair? is that equal? why isn't feminism needed?
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Birkenhead
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#246
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#246
(Original post by James Milibanter)
"A man is selected for hire over a woman; fewer women reach tenure track positions; there’s a gender gap in publications."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
This particular study refers exclusively to the scientific profession, which is dominated by men from the get-go, probably because far more men are interested in science academically and professionally than women. It is not surprising that with far more men than women studying scientific subjects at university and applying to jobs in science afterwards, men are going to be far more represented in the profession. A bit of common sense, for goodness sake. I could just as easily cite the dominance of women in primary school education or nursing as evidence that our society oppresses men.

Until you can provide evidence that these things are the result of gender bias and not less sinister factors, this is not supportive evidence that we live in a sexist society.

"According to TNS Research Surveys, 68 percent of women surveyed believe gender discrimination exists in the workplace."
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/effects-gender-discrimination-workplace-2860.html
This makes use of the fallacy argumentum ad populum. It isn't valid supportive evidence of your claims.

why do you think that men are generally more successful than women in the world of work? is that fair? is that equal? why isn't feminism needed?
I've no idea why men are more successful. It may be because their chemical disposition more commonly predisposes them to the sort of aggression and risk-taking that is rewarded in a capitalist society. However, there is no reason to believe that they are more successful purely because of their gender, and therefore I don't see the problem. I see no reason to believe there is not an equality of opportunity for men and women as things stand and I believe that the vast majority of employers go to great lengths to be fair in their employment and remuneration. That men are generally more successful is not evidence that this is not the case.
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username1331498
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#247
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#247
(Original post by James Milibanter)
how about this?
We are being oppressed in almost every way due to capitalism and fascism masquerading as liberal democracy (i.e. as in the USA where murder is legal as long as you kill a black person). Anarchism worked in Catalonia until Franco and his fascist seized the area meanwhile turning all the leftists against each other. Might I say that Anarchism isn't a lack of order, much rather it is a lack of power, instead of being oppressed we live in a state of mutual respect for the purposes of progression instead of the gain of capital, an absence of socioeconomic inequality and social class. Anarchy represents order, respect and progress, capitalism is a state of oppression based on a wealth that values a person based on their excess rather than their character and virtues.
Murder is not legal as long as you kill a black person. What a ridiculous statement to make.
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username1331498
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#248
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#248
(Original post by James Milibanter)
and that amounts to the justification of dehumanising someone? i would like to see you thought process.
Where has anyone dehumanised someone?
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effofex
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#249
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#249
(Original post by kudzi.c)
How can we get more boys to see that feminism benefits them too? Any male feminists out there, what made you see the importance of feminism? And people who think feminism is useless, I'd like to know why.
I'm a male feminist -partially for reasons for self-interest though - if feminism means that women are required to participate fully in the labour market like we do then it means society is more productive and we no longer have to support them financially like in the past. That means we have more disposable income to spend on ourselves and more to devote to our hobbies. Also, everyone regardless of gender can then be autonomous - they don't interfere in our lives, we don't interfere in theirs.
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katbob
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#250
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#250
(Original post by effofex)
I'm a male feminist -partially for reasons for self-interest though - if feminism means that women are required to participate fully in the labour market like we do then it means society is more productive and we no longer have to support them financially like in the past. That means we have more disposable income to spend on ourselves and more to devote to our hobbies. Also, everyone regardless of gender can then be autonomous - they don't interfere in our lives, we don't interfere in theirs.
Well hello there.
Fellow FEMinist whats going on in the hood.
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radicalboujie
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#251
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#251
I used to be a feminist and im a female, quit because I've first hand experienced on social networks sites such as twitter and tumblr how racist mainstream (white) feminism is. For example in my home country somalia, FGM and rape as war punishments is very common and right now there are many rape crisis centres and hospitals for women and children established by somali women. HOWEVER, white feminists still go on "self exploration" trips to my home country with their saviour complex believing that their western experience of equality can free a bunch of "oppressed" african women. Completely ignoring the work somali diaspora are doing themselves to reverse the atrocities happening. This isn't just my home country this is every third world country and yes it is very patronising.

Feminism seems to be about "oh look at me I'm saving these poor brown and black women"
And ignoring the fact that many of these african countries where matriarchal and EQUAL societies before colonisation of the British empire and other European countries.
I still believe in feminist values but I feel comfortable labelling myself as a womanist (if you don't know what womanism is search Angela davis)


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Olderandwiser23
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#252
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#252
(Original post by radicalboujie)
I used to be a feminist and im a female, quit because I've first hand experienced on social networks sites such as twitter and tumblr how racist mainstream (white) feminism is. For example in my home country somalia, FGM and rape as war punishments is very common and right now there are many rape crisis centres and hospitals for women and children established by somali women. HOWEVER, white feminists still go on "self exploration" trips to my home country with their saviour complex believing that their western experience of equality can free a bunch of "oppressed" african women. Completely ignoring the work somali diaspora are doing themselves to reverse the atrocities happening. This isn't just my home country this is every third world country and yes it is very patronising.

Feminism seems to be about "oh look at me I'm saving these poor brown and black women"
And ignoring the fact that many of these african countries where matriarchal and EQUAL societies before colonisation of the British empire and other European countries.
I still believe in feminist values but I feel comfortable labelling myself as a womanist (if you don't know what womanism is search Angela davis)


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Never take twitter or tumblr as a good representation of anyone. Your first mistake.


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radicalboujie
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#253
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#253
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
Never take twitter or tumblr as a good representation of anyone. Your first mistake.


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That's how they represent themselves though. Twitter and tumblr are useful in serving women of colour and other feminists safe spaces to discuss issues but u most than likely see the true colours of these faux Intersectional feminists

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Ki Yung Na
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#254
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#254
Feminism attracts too many idiots, who in turn attract too much attention.

Gender equality however I do agree with; as do reasonable feminists? That's why they should ditch the feminism label.

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Olderandwiser23
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#255
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#255
(Original post by radicalboujie)
That's how they represent themselves though. Twitter and tumblr are useful in serving women of colour and other feminists safe spaces to discuss issues but u most than likely see the true colours of these faux Intersectional feminists

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That's how a very small number of people represent themselves. Twitter and tumblr are just like tsr. A collection of bs and trolls.


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radicalboujie
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#256
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#256
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
That's how a very small number of people represent themselves. Twitter and tumblr are just like tsr. A collection of bs and trolls.


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But I'm talking about big big mainstream feminists who have a dozen thousand followers they're the ones who also have public platforms. Srsly please understand that twitter is a sort of public platform itself. I have 2k followers mostly women of colour and feminist politics is full of so much respectability politics and erasure of certain voices. It's impactful

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ChaoticButterfly
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#257
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#257
(Original post by kudzi.c)
Well pointed out, that comment does isolate men. There are many men who fought for gender equality alongside women. I think education, more use and patience will help get us over all the connotations that come with feminism though.
My complaint isn't labeled at feminists as such. When talking to them they seem more likely to agree with me on that. I'm also of the opinion that having to have two parents working full time when a child is young is actually not a good thing. The cost of living has just gone up and a lot of families are no better off from having both parents work compared to their parents generation where it was more the norm where the mum stayed at home and the dad worked. Basically it should be possible for one parent to work whilst the other stays at home, but the man or the woman should be ale to fill both roles depending on what works best for the couple. Or they could both work part time.

Just replace feminism with gender equality ism and focus on problems that face men as well as women (even if there are more problems facing women than their are men) and you would save a lot of time and arguing.

I'm more than happy to support gender equality for both men and women.
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lmk97
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#258
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#258
(Original post by kudzi.c)
How can we get more boys to see that feminism benefits them too? Any male feminists out there, what made you see the importance of feminism? And people who think feminism is useless, I'd like to know why.
Men will never like feminism, their nature is to protect, to provide, to dominate (not with the negative connotations attached to this nowadays), whereas a woman's nature is to care, nurture, love and make a loving home for her children and family. You can see this evident in animals and in the pre-1960s world.
The rise of feminism has been detrimental to families and society in general, the order of things has now overturned - this would be okay if both parties had the same attributes and the same weaknesses. However this is not the case.
Men and women are equal; but they are not the same.
Therefore they have equal worth in and of themselves, but different roles. The issue is that patriarchy is now seen as the enemy of a 'good' 'developed' 'modern' society however those living under patriarchy would've probably disagreed.
It is true that modern feminism is poisonous, it is also contagious, it makes women think they are empowered and free. But they are not. By being on the contraceptive pill, so that they may control their fertility, they feel that they are liberated from the agony of motherhood, the weighing down of not being able to work or the stress of having 5+ children; when in actual fact they are allowing themselves to be used by men. There have been studies to show that men can tell when a woman is on the pill, instinctively, just like he can tell if she is fertile or menstruating. Women moan about men not being committed enough, in terms of relationships, when men are given the message (subliminally) that the woman isn't committed to being a wife or mother by being on birth control. No matter what anyone says, a man is instinctively seeking a mate who would fulfil the role as a child barer.

Furthermore men feel out of place in the family unit, once upon a time one wage COULD provide for a family with 6 children, albeit barely, but, it could. However, once women had to have a piece of the workers cake the availability of jobs had to increase by almost 50%. Not only is the recession in the 80s testament to a workforce under huge strain, but the number of unemployed people show that it is just not feasible to have so many people in work. It cannot be denied that women are more often than not outdoing them in the work place (showing that the modern concept of feminism as female superiority is working). It is important to note that I am saying women are unable to be successful in their careers; in fact, the issue isn't in ability; in the rise of modernism one can see that women are more than able to be successful in a working environment, however just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should.

I am a woman, by the way
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Olderandwiser23
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#259
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#259
(Original post by lmk97)
Men will never like feminism, their nature is to protect, to provide, to dominate (not with the negative connotations attached to this nowadays), whereas a woman's nature is to care, nurture, love and make a loving home for her children and family. You can see this evident in animals and in the pre-1960s world.
The rise of feminism has been detrimental to families and society in general, the order of things has now overturned - this would be okay if both parties had the same attributes and the same weaknesses. However this is not the case.
Men and women are equal; but they are not the same.
Therefore they have equal worth in and of themselves, but different roles. The issue is that patriarchy is now seen as the enemy of a 'good' 'developed' 'modern' society however those living under patriarchy would've probably disagreed.
It is true that modern feminism is poisonous, it is also contagious, it makes women think they are empowered and free. But they are not. By being on the contraceptive pill, so that they may control their fertility, they feel that they are liberated from the agony of motherhood, the weighing down of not being able to work or the stress of having 5+ children; when in actual fact they are allowing themselves to be used by men. There have been studies to show that men can tell when a woman is on the pill, instinctively, just like he can tell if she is fertile or menstruating.
Pahahahahahah


(Original post by lmk97)
Women moan about men not being committed enough, in terms of relationships, when men are given the message (subliminally) that the woman isn't committed to being a wife or mother by being on birth control. No matter what anyone says, a man is instinctively seeking a mate who would fulfil the role as a child barer.

Furthermore men feel out of place in the family unit, once upon a time one wage COULD provide for a family with 6 children, albeit barely, but, it could. However, once women had to have a piece of the workers cake the availability of jobs had to increase by almost 50%. Not only is the recession in the 80s testament to a workforce under huge strain, but the number of unemployed people show that it is just not feasible to have so many people in work. It cannot be denied that women are more often than not outdoing them in the work place (showing that the modern concept of feminism as female superiority is working). It is important to note that I am saying women are unable to be successful in their careers; in fact, the issue isn't in ability; in the rise of modernism one can see that women are more than able to be successful in a working environment, however just because someone can do something doesn't mean they should.

I am a woman, by the way
Are you actually saying women shouldn't work or shouldn't be successful?




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DK_Tipp
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#260
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#260
(Original post by James Milibanter)
I believe you speak of Dappah Laughs. now you have just proved the point that I am about to make, by relieving him of his platform he is now unable to impact society. He is quoted saying "dressed like that you are asking to be raped" to an audience member, I understand that you may not have known that but a person of that sort should not hold a platform and (in fact) should be rehabilitated. "Lad culture" should not become an outlet if it oppresses women, freedom from oppression is one of my fundamental beliefs, and it should be the belief of the vast majority excluding the bigots and fascists.
No I was thinking of that American guy. He's much scarier than Dapper Laugh and an embarrassment to men.

I agree that bigotry and those expressing violent or dangerous sentiment should not be given a platform. However there is a classist element here too. The middle classes see it as uncouth and it makes them uncomfortable. Where does lad culture come from and why is it so at odds with feminism? Have feminists done enough to include the beer drinking, Oasis listening, football supporters in their vision for society? Do they know how to appeal to this cohort?

Lad culture is at least in part a reaction to feminism and the New Man, movements which appear to have abandoned them.
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