Plane crash: Germanwings A320 crashes in French Alps Watch

Drewski
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#241
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#241
(Original post by esbo)
Anyone can find evidence, and it can be reported to the media.
Can they? Anyone can go rummaging around a crash site, around dead bodies? Really?

But again, if it's not you, why do you trust them? What makes you certain that the media will report things fairly and accurately?

I'm not sure you're on the same planet as the rest of us...
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esbo
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(Original post by Drewski)
Can they? Anyone can go rummaging around a crash site, around dead bodies? Really?

I'm not sure you're on the same planet as the rest of us...
There crash site will require some security and specialist, but anything found should be reported to the media.

There is lots of other evidence from other sources, ie people he know, whcih they can report to the media, there is no need to hide any evidence form the public, the investigators are serving us, not themselves.

They should not withhold impostant evidence as they have done such as what was on the voice recorder, evidence we only got to know about because it was leaked.

There is no need for secrecy because secrecy can't be guaranteed anyway so it is a false crutch.
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Drewski
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(Original post by esbo)
There crash site will require some security and specialist, but anything found should be reported to the media.

There is lots of other evidence from other sources, ie people he know, whcih they can report to the media, there is no need to hide any evidence form the public, the investigators are serving us, not themselves.

They should not withhold impostant evidence as they have done such as what was on the voice recorder, evidence we only got to know about because it was leaked.

There is no need for secrecy because secrecy can't be guaranteed anyway so it is a false crutch.
So you think things like photos of immolated, pulverized human remains, body parts strewn across the ground, children's personal items and luggage should be freely available to everyone the second it's happened? Can you not see how that might provoke a deeply unhelpful emotional response from those involved?

I can't reconcile how you think one group of people are deeply untrustworthy and hell bent on deceiving you, while another are deeply honourable with no other thought than sharing everything instantly. Can you not see how that's pure idealistic nonsense?
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esbo
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And of course the main cause of the crash was how the airline, crash investigator and all the other pumped up secretive officail kept his
mental illness secret.


The passengers were not allowed to know he was mentally ill, they were *forced* to put their trust in the "experts".

The secretive "experts" how have the blood of 150 innocents on their expert hands.



Remi Jouty, Expert.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by esbo)
And of course the main cause of the crash was how the airline, crash investigator and all the other pumped up secretive officail kept his
mental illness secret.
Are you seriously suggesting the airline or crash investigators knew about the co-pilot's illness before the crash, and that the crash was caused by them not divulging that knowledge? :eek:
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esbo
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(Original post by Drewski)
So you think things like photos of immolated, pulverized human remains, body parts strewn across the ground, children's personal items and luggage should be freely available to everyone the second it's happened? Can you not see how that might provoke a deeply unhelpful emotional response from those involved?

I can't reconcile how you think one group of people are deeply untrustworthy and hell bent on deceiving you, while another are deeply honourable with no other thought than sharing everything instantly. Can you not see how that's pure idealistic nonsense?

Grissly phots never kiled anyone, nobody is force to look at them.

People who want to see the evidence want to see all of it no matter how grisly, no stone unturned.

People's emotional responses are of little relevance, everyone responds differently and the key thing is collecting evidence not protecting the feeling of the emotionally delicate, saving lives not saving face.


I don't think anyone is deeply honourable that is why I want to see the evidence first hand for my self, nothing withheld.

I want to be responsible for my own life I don't want to put it in the hand of the "experts" , everyone is faliable but mistakes are more easily spotted when they are out in the open not hidden under a veil of secrecy.
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shawn_o1
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Are you seriously suggesting the airline or crash investigators knew about the co-pilot's illness before the crash, and that the crash was caused by them not divulging that knowledge? :eek:
Maybe it was whoever diagnosed his mental illness that didn't inform his employers (i.e. his employers didn't know anything about it either)
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Drewski
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(Original post by esbo)
And of course the main cause of the crash was how the airline, crash investigator and all the other pumped up secretive officail kept his
mental illness secret..
The co-pilot hid his illness. No-one else. He hid the notes from his employers.



You're so far away from established fact it would be laughable if it weren't about something so serious.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by shawn_o1)
Maybe it was whoever diagnosed his mental illness that didn't inform his employers (i.e. his employers didn't know anything about it either)
Whoever diagnosed his illness is bound by medical confidentiality laws not to disclose it.
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esbo
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Are you seriously suggesting the airline or crash investigators knew about the co-pilot's illness before the crash, and that the crash was caused by them not divulging that knowledge? :eek:
We know the airline knew about his mental health problem, the investiigators should have too.

BOTH conspired to keep quite about it.

Such information should have been in the public domain immediately so that the public could make their own decisions about if they wanted to be flown by someone with serious mental health problems.


I am pretty sure if the passangers on the plane knew he had mental health problems they would have objected to him being alone in the cockpit.

I certainly would have, mind you I would not have been on the plane in the first place.
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esbo
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Whoever diagnosed his illness is bound by medical confidentiality laws not to disclose it.
The airline already knew about his mental health problems, there was a note in his file.
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thecatwithnohat
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I know this sounds horrible, but I'd rather he took his own life ALONE than selfishly take the lives of the 142 others too. Just, ugh. The innocent souls will be turning in their graves :emo:
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thecatwithnohat
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(Original post by esbo)
The airline already knew about his mental health problems, there was a note in his file.
I'm sure if they did health checks and found that you were suffering from depression, then surely you shouldn't be getting the job in the first place or they'd dismiss you? This saddens me, this could have been prevented.
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esbo
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In South Korea, carriers use a 350-question personality review and “continuously” assess pilots individually and in groups, with examinations extending to family members, according to the country’s Aviation Safety Policy Office of Civil Aviation. Singapore also has stringent requirements.

The European Aviation Safety Authority, by contrast, doesn’t demand routine mental-fitness tests. Assessments can be ordered if a discussion of wellbeing in periodic physicals gives cause for concern, according to the agency’s guidelines.
So major fail by European "experts" there.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by esbo)
The airline already knew about his mental health problems, there was a note in his file.
The airline knew he had depression several years ago and was checking him periodically for that. It did not know he had been diagnosed with a new serious psychosomatic illness. It is completely preposterous to suggest a crash investigator could or should have known about his illness before the crash.
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Drewski
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(Original post by esbo)
So major fail by European "experts" there.
All pilots sit medical exams every year. There is an element of those tests that assesses mental health. That is also assessed by peers (hence why the young, relatively inexperienced co-pilot was being commanded by a captain with lots of experience) regularly but informally.

It has been noted many times by medical health professionals and mental health professionals that there is no test in existence that gives you guaranteed answers about whether someone has thoughts or tendencies like that. With the latter in mind, what do you want people to do?
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Drewski
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(Original post by esbo)
So major fail by European "experts" there.
Wait. You don't trust experts. You've said that many times.

So why do you believe the Asian experts? Why are they special?
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esbo
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(Original post by thecatwithnohat)
I'm sure if they did health checks and found that you were suffering from depression, then surely you shouldn't be getting the job in the first place or they'd dismiss you? This saddens me, this could have been prevented.
They only do a check when you apply for a job, zilch after that, South Korean Airline for example does regular detailed checks.

So we are at the problem I have been alluding to, a secret enquiry conducted by the people who are at fault, ie the European Aviation Safety Authority.

In South Korea, carriers use a 350-question personality review and “continuously” assess pilots individually and in groups, with examinations extending to family members, according to the country’s Aviation Safety Policy Office of Civil Aviation. Singapore also has stringent requirements.

The European Aviation Safety Authority, by contrast, doesn’t demand routine mental-fitness tests. Assessments can be ordered if a discussion of wellbeing in periodic physicals gives cause for concern, according to the agency’s guidelines.


So we have a secret enquiry into safety done by the people who are at fault for a major disaster. Obviously they will not find themselve guilty will they.

The whole things is a shambles and it is a perfect example of why I always condemn secrecy and appeals to authority.

Had we had the Korean system this would have been much less likely, his girlfriend for example knew about his mental problems as no doubt did others who knew him well.

But the big issue here is the investigation is being done by those who are at least in part responsible for the disaster.

That is the second disaster.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by esbo)
So major fail by European "experts" there.
Given your scepticism for experts, how do you determine which set of experts is correct, if either? Perhaps the South Korean ones are creating stress-related problems among their pilots with such rigorous tests.
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esbo
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(Original post by Good bloke)
The airline knew he had depression several years ago and was checking him periodically for that. It did not know he had been diagnosed with a new serious psychosomatic illness. It is completely preposterous to suggest a crash investigator could or should have known about his illness before the crash.
Well that is because the checks are inadqauate and we are in the dangerous situation where those who may well be and indeed appear to be responsible for failure are conducting a secretive investigation adn feeding their own version of event to the press.

It is a dangerous farce, and we have already seen where such thing can lead.

I said the airline not the crash investigator, don't use straw-men arguments.
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