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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    What does it solve? It solves an awful lot, actually. It explains not only the reason for our existence, but also happenings in our day-to-day lives; it explains the justices and injustices in this world; it explains how we have a purpose; it explains the answer to the question of what is or isn't ethical - a question that science can't answer.
    Also, before anyone else starts saying that it's all v well and good, but isn't it obvious that man would want to create a god to give them a purpose, and to make themselves feel loved... just ask yourselves why we feel a need for this. Where does this need originate from?
    It does explain the reason for our existence but whether the argument is likely is a completely different scenario. It doesn't explain the justices and injustices, how can a God that is both omnipotent and benevolent create a world that has evil? It does not work. The answer is God is either not benevolent or not omnipotent. Probably doesn't even exists.

    You claim science can't answer the question about what is ethical? That's because there isn't an answer, ethics and morality is subjective, just like beauty. Religion defining morals is like magazines defining beauty, it's not true and leads people to believe if you don't conform to that idea you aren't moral or attractive.

    Our need for an answer whether that be scientific or religious comes from our fear of the unknown, people are scared of going alone into death and not knowing whether they will ever feel anything ever again, and while it's comforting to believe in religion it is for the weak minded and ignorant. The fact is we are more than likely to be on this earth just over 100 years if we're lucky, and after that we are nothing, and that's fine. The earth is an incredibly complex place that we have been lucky enough to be in the set of circumstances that has led to us being conscious enough to comprehend the universe. Don't diminish it with the notion that a God had anything to do with it.
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    (Original post by JW22)
    It does explain the reason for our existence but whether the argument is likely is a completely different scenario. It doesn't explain the justices and injustices, how can a God that is both omnipotent and benevolent create a world that has evil? It does not work. The answer is God is either not benevolent or not omnipotent. Probably doesn't even exists.

    When you ask how God, benevolent as he is, could create a world with evil in it, you forget that he doesn't always take what seems to us to be the most obvious route; after all, wouldn't he also be infinitely wiser than us? We only see the short-term benefits of an all-good world. Think! Without evil we cannot see just how good goodness is. How can you tell how bright white is without the context of black alongside it? It absolutely does work! The contrast of good and evil is one of the most beautiful and well thought-out ones there is.

    You claim science can't answer the question about what is ethical? That's because there isn't an answer, ethics and morality is subjective, just like beauty. Religion defining morals is like magazines defining beauty, it's not true and leads people to believe if you don't conform to that idea you aren't moral or attractive.

    What do I hear you say? "There isn't an answer." In other words, your brain just switches off when you see that there is no answer in science. How does the definition of morals make moral people believe that they are not just that? Religion sets out clearly what is and isn't moral and right; find one fault with the rules our God sets out. And if you prefer proof, there are thousands - if not millions - of people who, through God's definition of morals vs sins, have massively improved their own lives, both on the outside and the inside. How can something with such a wonderful outcome be bad? Indeed, how can something which has affected so many peoples' lives in a positive way, be man-made? For hundreds of generations, this same, supposedly "man-made" God has made such a huge difference; I simply cannot imagine how you can therefore say that he is man-made.

    Our need for an answer whether that be scientific or religious comes from our fear of the unknown, people are scared of going alone into death and not knowing whether they will ever feel anything ever again, and while it's comforting to believe in religion it is for the weak minded and ignorant. The fact is we are more than likely to be on this earth just over 100 years if we're lucky, and after that we are nothing, and that's fine. The earth is an incredibly complex place that we have been lucky enough to be in the set of circumstances that has led to us being conscious enough to comprehend the universe. Don't diminish it with the notion that a God had anything to do with it.
    Firstly, the notion that God plays a part in the universe has the very opposite effect of diminishing. Secondly... there's a little piece of logic which you might want to think about. There are four options:
    God exists and you believe in him = amazing!
    God doesn't exist and you believe in him = okay*
    God exists and you don't believe in him = terrible
    God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him = okay*

    (*Note: before you start arguing about the effects God has in your life (the above is about afterlife), life is much nicer believing in God than not, for even if he were non-existent, he still plays a major part in our lives, and vastly improves them; there's a reason so many people believe in God!)
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    there's a reason so many people believe in God!)
    There are two main ones, actually: (a) a need for comfort and (b) superstition. Neither are rational.
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    If you're over the age of 7 and still believe in fairys then you deserve all the ridicule you get, frankly...
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    There are two main ones, actually: (a) a need for comfort and (b) superstition. Neither are rational.
    I don't think you get what I'm saying. I was simply mentioning that when people go into a religion, unless it's cult etc., they get a lot out of it, and it's not just about depriving yourself of enjoyments or whatever. It's a counter-argument to one which I saw might be coming on, which is that, all things being equal, the two "okay" options aren't the same, suggesting that you wouldn't enjoy your life if you're religious, for a pointless reason. Do you see where I'm coming from when I say that this isn't true?
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    (Original post by Makbkuan)
    What I don't understand is, why do people believe that there are aliens out there but reject the idea of there being a God?


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    A very good point. It seems more people have been anally probed by aliens than have met the Virgin Mary.

    This concerns me that either there are lots of aliens probing people in middle America or that all the Christian people who saw the Virgin Mary were mistaken. Or seeing aliens. Or being probed.
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    (Original post by JC.)
    If you're over the age of 7 and still believe in fairys then you deserve all the ridicule you get, frankly...
    If you're over the age of 7 and still misspell "fairies"...
    But jokes aside, that is really quite an irrelevant comment. We are having a sensible debate here as to whether God exists, etc., and simply ridiculing the other party isn't going to get anywhere.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    If you're over the age of 7 and still misspell "fairies"...
    But jokes aside, that is really quite an irrelevant comment. We are having a sensible debate here as to whether God exists, etc., and simply ridiculing the other party isn't going to get anywhere.
    Shakespeare couldn't spill either. He did OK for himself.

    No point having a debate with those who's brains are addled with religion. You can present as many rational and logical arguments as you like but you'll never be able to make someone see reason when the first thing out of their mouth is "But the magic man says..."
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    Do you see where I'm coming from when I say that this isn't true?
    When you spout such nonsense as

    (Original post by Treblebee)
    life is much nicer believing in God than not, for even if he were non-existent, he still plays a major part in our lives
    I don't think anyone could reasonably see where you are coming from. You are basically saying that you cannot rationally think about the origins of life, realise you don't know the answer and accept that you don't know, without making up the existence of something to explain the mystery and give you comfort.

    You now say that life is better if you believe in this adult Santa even if it does not exist because of the comfort, and don't even consider how many people are not in need of this false comfort.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    What does it solve? It solves an awful lot, actually. It explains not only the reason for our existence, but also happenings in our day-to-day lives; it explains the justices and injustices in this world; it explains how we have a purpose; it explains the answer to the question of what is or isn't ethical - a question that science can't answer.
    Also, before anyone else starts saying that it's all v well and good, but isn't it obvious that man would want to create a god to give them a purpose, and to make themselves feel loved... just ask yourselves why we feel a need for this. Where does this need originate from?
    You are now taking the step ahead of ourselves which I spoke about on the first message.
    According to our current scientific knowledge propability of god is from small to nonexistant. Maybe in the future more will be known but its way more likely that its not god what we will discover than that it would be. We cannot just assume there is something based on that techincally its possible because its not been disproven. If there is god it will be found someday, before that what is the reason to believe? We could believe in anything if we take the logic that because it hasnt been disproven its true, even if there is not a single piece of evidence.
    A made up solution doesn't solve anything.

    Ethics you speak about? Well, the bible has for instance: Daughters raping their own father (Genesis 19), guidelines about treating slaves (its fine to hit them, as long as they don't die) (Exodus 21), god sending down a plague to punish nations that have gone war against Jerusalem (ordinary civilians are totally responsible for war actions) (Zechariah 14), command to stone people who have sex before marriage to death, even women that get raped (Deuteromony 22).

    Shall I go on, or is this enough education of morals for the modern society?
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    (Original post by JC.)
    Shakespeare couldn't spill either. He did OK for himself.
    I don't know; he certainly spilled a lot of beans about some kings of England.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    Firstly, the notion that God plays a part in the universe has the very opposite effect of diminishing. Secondly... there's a little piece of logic which you might want to think about. There are four options:
    God exists and you believe in him = amazing!
    God doesn't exist and you believe in him = okay*
    God exists and you don't believe in him = terrible
    God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him = okay*

    (*Note: before you start arguing about the effects God has in your life (the above is about afterlife), life is much nicer believing in God than not, for even if he were non-existent, he still plays a major part in our lives, and vastly improves them; there's a reason so many people believe in God!)
    No, life believing in god can also be tormentive. Often while not tormentive life believing in god can be restrictive.

    I was born to Christian family, and raised as one. Even at school Christianity was taught as truth to Christian students. I always questioned everything since age of 8 thou and by the age of 12 religion was behind me for good.
    What happened before that? I was school bullied and my parents hurt me physically several times.
    What I tought with brain of 8 year old? That god hates me to punished me like this, and while I avoided sinning I always tought god is punishing me and not pleased and I will end up in hell. It was tormentive time, to never feel alright, and always be afraid, when not peers or parents then imaginary cruel man.

    At the age of 10 I heard about big bang, got interested and did a lot of reading on basic concepts of science and later, atheism. I didnt understand it all, but I understood enough to realize there was an alternative.
    While I was still bullied and my parents were fighting and yelling it was whole lot easier to think that I am not responsible for their actions. (Ie. Its not gods plan to punish me). Since then my life has turned greatly better. So yes, believing is a loss in many cases. And what comes to hell... There is no evidence of it, so I feel pretty safe to take the change. Plus, I'd always choose raw truth over false comfort.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    When you ask how God, benevolent as he is, could create a world with evil in it, you forget that he doesn't always take what seems to us to be the most obvious route; after all, wouldn't he also be infinitely wiser than us? We only see the short-term benefits of an all-good world. Think! Without evil we cannot see just how good goodness is. How can you tell how bright white is without the context of black alongside it? It absolutely does work! The contrast of good and evil is one of the most beautiful and well thought-out ones there is.

    What about starving people in 3rd world countries, they have no ‘white’ to contrast with their black, their entire lives are often miserable, saying that all the bad in the world is part of Gods plan and we can’t see the good in it because we aren’t smart enough is incredibly stupid. Stop putting the blame of humans onto God to justify your biases, that argument is the biggest ‘I don’t know’ answer I’ve ever heard.

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    What do I hear you say? "There isn't an answer." In other words, your brain just switches off when you see that there is no answer in science. How does the definition of morals make moral people believe that they are not just that? Religion sets out clearly what is and isn't moral and right;

    I think you’ve misunderstood. If you asked the question what is 2+2, the answer is obviously 4, and only 4. There isn’t an answer to morality and ethics because peoples morality and ethics are determined by environmental factors, psychological factors, brain chemistry, upbringing and every experience they ever have, and because of that there is no definitive view of morality. If I asked you what is the greatest food in the world you wouldn’t be able to give a definitive answer that applies to everyone, only to yourself. Every single view of morality is the right one and the wrong one, because it is subjective, it isn’t as easy as saying 2+2=4 like religion tries to do. That is an answer in science, an example of your 'brain just switching off' would be believing in God because we haven’t yet figured out every single piece of evidence to prove God doesn’t exist, but we’re getting closer. What has religion proven in the past 2000 years?

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    find one fault with the rules our God sets out.

    Some faults of the top of my head, ‘thou shalt not murder’, didn’t God murder a lot of people in the floods when he saved Noah? (Also if he was omnipotent couldn’t he just magic them all dead instead of flooding them, plot hole…). What if it is a situation of kill or be killed? Why has God given us survival instincts like the 'fight or flight' response if we shouldn't be allowed to use it? ‘Honor your mother and father.’ What if your father is a rapist and mother a thief?

    -------

    And if you prefer proof, there are thousands - if not millions - of people who, through God's definition of morals vs sins, have massively improved their own lives, both on the outside and the inside. How can something with such a wonderful outcome be bad? Indeed, how can something which has affected so many peoples' lives in a positive way, be man-made? For hundreds of generations, this same, supposedly "man-made" God has made such a huge difference; I simply cannot imagine how you can therefore say that he is man-made.

    How is it man-made? The Bible proves it. The bible was written by pre 14th Century men, not the word of God. In the 15th - 16th Century Nikolaus Copernicus caused the Copernican Revolution, before this time people believed the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun revolved around us until Copernicus realised it was the other way around. With this in mind looking at the start of Genesis, it starts something along the lines of, ‘God created Earth, then he created light’, what this means is that he created earth and then created the sun, however as we know because of Copernicus the sun must have been created first for the earth to be created in place as it is, so if the Bible was the word of God, Genesis would have to start something like, ‘First God created the Universe, then the Sun, then the planets including Earth’. This proves that Genesis was written by pre 14th Century men and not the word of God, and if you can’t even trust the Bible, what can you trust about Christianity? (Just because it is man-made doesn’t mean it can’t have benefits for some).

    ------

    Firstly, the notion that God plays a part in the universe has the very opposite effect of diminishing. Secondly... there's a little piece of logic which you might want to think about. There are four options:
    God exists and you believe in him = amazing!
    God doesn't exist and you believe in him = okay*
    God exists and you don't believe in him = terrible
    God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him = okay*

    (*Note: before you start arguing about the effects God has in your life (the above is about afterlife), life is much nicer believing in God than not, for even if he were non-existent, he still plays a major part in our lives, and vastly improves them; there's a reason so many people believe in God!)
    (The rest of my response is in the quote) I'd say it's more incredible that God doesn't exist because the chance of us existing without the intervention of a deity is incredibly small, whereas with a God this is all almost determined to happen, just a different perspective i guess.

    I agree with your four options for afterlife, however the problem with it is that it doesn't consider the possibilities. The fact is God is most likely not going to exist, and if he does, it definitely won't be Christianity. Which will mean that in your Pascals Wager afterlife scenario we'll both end up exactly the same. But in life I will have more freedom and I won't be restricted by religious dogma. I guess it all depends whether you would accept the two extremes of being miserable with the truth or happy with a lie.
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    Atheists,
    Please repent of your sins and receive the free gift of salvation from your Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
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    (Original post by hoping4Astars)
    Atheists,
    Please repent of your sins and receive the free gift of salvation from your Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
    Preaching, eh? I thought the time for free gifts was in December, when another fictional character, Santa Claus, will hand them out to children, making good use of the flue network. Or am I confused?
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    (Original post by hoping4Astars)
    Atheists,
    Please repent of your sins and receive the free gift of salvation from your Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
    Is this meant to be a troll post? You cannot seriously expect a post of this kind to sway anyone -- from experience, I'd say you're throwing out bait to get people riled up.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    What does it solve? It solves an awful lot, actually. It explains not only the reason for our existence, but also happenings in our day-to-day lives; it explains the justices and injustices in this world; it explains how we have a purpose; it explains the answer to the question of what is or isn't ethical - a question that science can't answer.
    Also, before anyone else starts saying that it's all v well and good, but isn't it obvious that man would want to create a god to give them a purpose, and to make themselves feel loved... just ask yourselves why we feel a need for this. Where does this need originate from?
    Invoking God solves absolutely nothing. You don't need to believe in deity to give your life a meaning and a reason and what is ethical is just God's opinion, so it's also subjective.

    (*Note: before you start arguing about the effects God has in your life (the above is about afterlife), life is much nicer believing in God than not, for even if he were non-existent, he still plays a major part in our lives, and vastly improves them; there's a reason so many people believe in God!)
    Nonsense! Life can be better without believing in God, it purely depends on the person you're asking. And belief in Deity can actually make your life a whole lot worse, as it often leads people to lead terrified lives in which they're constantly fearful of God and going to Hell.

    What you said also makes absolutely no sense, if something is non-existent then how can it still play a major role in your life?! Your belief in a non-existence God may play a major role, but if God isn't real then he will obviously have no actual role in your life.
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    (Original post by Emilia1320)
    You are now taking the step ahead of ourselves which I spoke about on the first message.
    According to our current scientific knowledge propability of god is from small to nonexistant. Maybe in the future more will be known but its way more likely that its not god what we will discover than that it would be. We cannot just assume there is something based on that techincally its possible because its not been disproven. If there is god it will be found someday, before that what is the reason to believe? We could believe in anything if we take the logic that because it hasnt been disproven its true, even if there is not a single piece of evidence.
    A made up solution doesn't solve anything. ?
    Wait a minute. How does scientific knowledge make the probability of God's existence small to nonexistent? Point out some specific knowledge in science which makes God unlikely.




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    (Original post by Canterbury bloke)
    A very good point. It seems more people have been anally probed by aliens than have met the Virgin Mary.

    This concerns me that either there are lots of aliens probing people in middle America or that all the Christian people who saw the Virgin Mary were mistaken. Or seeing aliens. Or being probed.
    :| ........

    You mean to say that because you don't take some testimony to be reliable - therefore all testimony is reliable?

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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    Point out some specific knowledge in science which makes God unlikely.
    There are many elements of scientific knowledge that render the existence of gods less likely, in that their existence is claimed by the religious to account for many things which scientific study has proved not to be that case. These refuted claims are clearly an attempt to justify the existence of deities and, taken together, the fact that deities are not necessary for the occurrences which the religious claim they are, strongly indicates that the religious are part of a conspiracy to get people to believe in deities' existence.

    Examples are the story of the flood, the Islamic claim that man was created from clay or that we are all descended from Adam and Eve, and the attribution of thunder and lighting to the anger of the gods. There was no worldwide flood, with the animals all saved by a single family in a single vessel; man was not created from clay; we are not all descended from two humans who lived at the same time; and lightning is caused by perfectly well understood natural phenomena, not angry gods.
 
 
 
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