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    (Original post by EmpireofRome)
    Not trying to detract from the OP's point, but which Universities do you think these are?
    I would rather not say because people will just jump in defending their unis, and this is just my opinion and is solely based on my own experiences of two RG unis and those of my friends. It has become extremely clear on my MA course that some RG unis have much lower standards than others by the kinds of questions that people have been asking about how to write essays, including "If I quote something does that need to be referenced?"
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    I would rather not say because people will just jump in defending their unis, and this is just my opinion and is solely based on my own experiences of two RG unis and those of my friends. It has become extremely clear on my MA course that some RG unis have much lower standards than others by the kinds of questions that people have been asking about how to write essays, including "If I quote something does that need to be referenced?"
    Well, this example that you posted, does not really indicate if the Unis have low entry standards....the people asking the question, could easily be an international student with really good grades in his country, but without the knowledge of writing an essay or referencing, due to the different academic systems that exist there. I cannot believe that even in the lowest ranked UK Uni, the students are not taught how to reference properly...
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    (Original post by alexkol)
    Well, this example that you posted, does not really indicate if the Unis have low entry standards....the people asking the question, could easily be an international student with really good grades in his country, but without the knowledge of writing an essay or referencing, due to the different academic systems that exist there. I cannot believe that even in the lowest ranked UK Uni, the students are not taught how to reference properly...
    They weren't international. Please don't add facts to my OWN experience. My course only has a few international students on it.

    [e] I also never said anything about entry standards. I said about teaching standards at the actual universities themselves. Students who don't know how to reference or structure academic work are being hard done by at their academic institutions. It's an important part of university.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    They weren't international. Please don't add facts to my OWN experience. My course only has a few international students on it.

    [e] I also never said anything about entry standards. I said about teaching standards at the actual universities themselves. Students who don't know how to reference or structure academic work are being hard done by at their academic institutions. It's an important part of university.
    Ok, fair enough then...I am really impressed from this fact..
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    (Original post by alexkol)
    Ok, fair enough then...I am really impressed from this fact..
    Impressed?! I found it pretty scary!
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    (Original post by PQ)
    It's the same funding as for undergrad - except PG degrees are also subsidised by an additional £1k direct to universities from hefce.

    Do you know anything about university funding beyond student finance england? Because your statements so far in this thread have demonstrated no understanding of the funding methodology.
    Universal funding refers to free tuition, paid for by the government, as in the context of the discussion. Go back and re-read.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    They weren't international. Please don't add facts to my OWN experience. My course only has a few international students on it.

    [e] I also never said anything about entry standards. I said about teaching standards at the actual universities themselves. Students who don't know how to reference or structure academic work are being hard done by at their academic institutions. It's an important part of university.
    Of course it's something they use at low ranked universities...
    https://metranet.londonmet.ac.uk/ser...ferencing2.cfm
    and the external examiners should be all over it if students there were getting away with producing unreferenced work.

    It's not even that difficult, just a chore really - which is why there are these semi automatic referencing aids these days.

    TBH I think it's most likely you've misinterpreted a students question as meaning they've never had to reference before.
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    Because this issue stresses me out, I made an e-petition.
    Please sign it if you feel a similar way about these proposals.
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...sYUko6ie21TnDf
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    (Original post by OliveMonty)
    Because this issue stresses me out, I made an e-petition.
    Please sign it if you feel a similar way about these proposals.
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...sYUko6ie21TnDf
    I can't see the text of the petition on that page, what is it you're asking us to agree with?
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Universities are indeed free in France, but I would still prefer to have £40K of debt and study in the UK (even more for Oxbridge). You don't realise how good British unis (at least the Russell group) are compared to European ones.


    I would also like to say that Switzerland has world-class and free universities because they only give the matura (equivalent of the A-levels) to 20% of an age group (the brightest ones), so students cost far less to the Government than in Britain, where 60% go to uni. The other 80% benefit from an excellent network of professional schools that give them technical skills, therefore making them immediately employable.

    The UK used to have a comparable system with the polytechnics, but John Major "transformed" them into universities, a move that I haver never understood.
    Good point. In order for the UK to have a similar system and to ensure high quality institutions at a manageable cost to the taxpayer, the proportion of students entering universities would have to fall. Universities are only as good as their students.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I didn't say they shouldn't spend their money on clothes, I just think that they could pay fees if they were asked to. Universities could offer bursaries to low income or excellent students for example, something which they wouldn't be able to do if they didn't have some extra income.
    Or you could just provide it by the state (which is funded partly by transaction such as £5000 clothes) which does a better job of redistribution. Poorer people on the whole are better off under such a system as apposed to the crumb throwing to a select few you describe under a more private financing system.

    On the Switzerland model of only the top 20% going to uni I probably would not have been able to go to university and study physics, which is I wanted to do since I was 13.

    This is the difference between our ideological approaches. I'm supportive of education for it;s own sake, not just the benefits it brings in terms of pure economic output in helping the money making machine.

    You could leave school and be a bin man at 13. But I still think providing education up to the age of 16 (and now 18 in some way) desirable. I would extend that to university as well. All the types of arguments made against it were made by the Victorian era a to why we can not have every working class child in education past 13 and so on. Yet here we are.

    We should be moving towards more productive and automated societies. That allows humans to spend time doing things for their own sake, like studying.
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    (Original post by Joinedup)
    Of course it's something they use at low ranked universities...
    https://metranet.londonmet.ac.uk/ser...ferencing2.cfm
    and the external examiners should be all over it if students there were getting away with producing unreferenced work.

    It's not even that difficult, just a chore really - which is why there are these semi automatic referencing aids these days.

    TBH I think it's most likely you've misinterpreted a students question as meaning they've never had to reference before.
    I never said that low ranked unis didn't use it so I have no idea why you've directed that part to me.

    And I didn't misinterpret the question - you weren't even in the room. The tutor was equally as taken aback as myself and other students who couldn't believe that someone even had to ask that question. I also didn't ever say people weren't having to reference at all, my point was that other unis obviously are not as picky with their referencing as my uni was. I was questioning the standard of their referencing not whether or not the referencing existed.

    My tutor told us in our seminar that we could use OSCOLA referencing if we like. She then went on and told us that we only need to put page numbers if we reference a book. We do not need page numbers for a journal article etc. The lawyers in the room questioned this as this is fundamentally NOT what OSCOLA tells you to do - she maintained that we would not be penalised for failing to enter page numbers for anything but books. She then also told us in the bibliography we only put texts we have referenced in the body. Again the lawyers questioned this as OSCOLA tells you that you enter in your bibliography everything you have read for your essay even if you then do not mention it in your text. So, this is just one example of how a leading RG uni differs from another RG uni. At my undergrad uni it would be circled on your paper if you did not put a page number for an article. It would be circled if you did not put the correct part of the source in italics, or in "" where it's an essay in a book rather than the book itself. Your quality of research would be questioned if you only had the texts you mentioned in your bibliography and hadn't appeared to do any 'wider reading'. My MA university is supposedly much higher in the league tables than my undergraduate one, despite both of them being RG unis, but the difference between referencing and also the quality of essays we have been shown is absolutely astounding. I have no doubt that this is the case with other universities from similar stories I've heard from friends at other leading RG unis
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    I never said that low ranked unis didn't use it so I have no idea why you've directed that part to me.

    And I didn't misinterpret the question - you weren't even in the room. The tutor was equally as taken aback as myself and other students who couldn't believe that someone even had to ask that question. I also didn't ever say people weren't having to reference at all, my point was that other unis obviously are not as picky with their referencing as my uni was. I was questioning the standard of their referencing not whether or not the referencing existed.

    My tutor told us in our seminar that we could use OSCOLA referencing if we like. She then went on and told us that we only need to put page numbers if we reference a book. We do not need page numbers for a journal article etc. The lawyers in the room questioned this as this is fundamentally NOT what OSCOLA tells you to do - she maintained that we would not be penalised for failing to enter page numbers for anything but books. She then also told us in the bibliography we only put texts we have referenced in the body. Again the lawyers questioned this as OSCOLA tells you that you enter in your bibliography everything you have read for your essay even if you then do not mention it in your text. So, this is just one example of how a leading RG uni differs from another RG uni. At my undergrad uni it would be circled on your paper if you did not put a page number for an article. It would be circled if you did not put the correct part of the source in italics, or in "" where it's an essay in a book rather than the book itself. Your quality of research would be questioned if you only had the texts you mentioned in your bibliography and hadn't appeared to do any 'wider reading'. My MA university is supposedly much higher in the league tables than my undergraduate one, despite both of them being RG unis, but the difference between referencing and also the quality of essays we have been shown is absolutely astounding. I have no doubt that this is the case with other universities from similar stories I've heard from friends at other leading RG unis
    I assume you appreciate that this obsession with referencing for undergraduate work is comparatively new and is a product of the development of word processing.

    I can assure you that I went through a law degree in the 1980s without any references other than in text references to case names (often the familiar forms) and the surnames of the authors of books and articles.

    It is only when I returned to HE about 8 years ago, that the world had changed in this way.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I assume you appreciate that this obsession with referencing for undergraduate work is comparatively new and is a product of the development of word processing.

    I can assure you that I went through a law degree in the 1980s without any references other than in text references to case names (often the familiar forms) and the surnames of the authors of books and articles.

    It is only when I returned to HE about 8 years ago, that the world had changed in this way.
    Yeah I know that. A man at my work did the same MA as me, except 15 years ago, and he said all work was handwritten so no proper referencing required. But whether it's new or not, when some unis think it's very important and mark you down for it and others don't, I have to question why they're not as fussed about it? It's plagiarism if you don't reference properly
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    Yeah I know that. A man at my work did the same MA as me, except 15 years ago, and he said all work was handwritten so no proper referencing required. But whether it's new or not, when some unis think it's very important and mark you down for it and others don't, I have to question why they're not as fussed about it? It's plagiarism if you don't reference properly
    My own take on this is that it has got wholly out of hand and that whilst I respect your opinion essentially the argument you are adopting shows the extent to which it has got out of hand.

    Referencing was originally to enable readers of published works to find original source comments in order to verify that they supported the author's statement.

    When the world wide web came along, plagiarism by cut and paste became a problem for the first time. Universities asked for references to ensure students had a grasp of the difference between academic meum and tuum. It was nothing to do with the marker being able to trace the source.

    What has developed since is an obsession with so called "correct" referencing. If you put something in quotation marks without a reference or you acknowledge a source but do not put a quotation in quotation marks, in no rational sense is this plagiarism as that terms would have been understood 20 years ago. I have even seen people criticised for paraphrasing and referencing when (it is alleged) they should have given a direct quote merely in order to put quotation marks around the quote.

    Students are now being marked down for not following one arbitrary code of referencing selected by their university or department when their academics are frequently submitting work for publication that doesn't meet that publishing house's arbitrary code of referencing and is usually corrected by a proof reader.

    Now you are taking this a stage further and criticising another university for not having an obsession with meeting an arbitrary referencing standard.

    The test of whether your fellow student was plagiarising or not (or knew whether he was plagiarising or not) is whether a fair minded reader would have believed that material that was not in fact the student's work was authored by the student.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    My own take on this is that it has got wholly out of hand and that whilst I respect your opinion essentially the argument you are adopting shows the extent to which it has got out of hand.

    Referencing was originally to enable readers of published works to find original source comments in order to verify that they supported the author's statement.

    When the world wide web came along, plagiarism by cut and paste became a problem for the first time. Universities asked for references to ensure students had a grasp of the difference between academic meum and tuum. It was nothing to do with the marker being able to trace the source.

    What has developed since is an obsession with so called "correct" referencing. If you put something in quotation marks without a reference or you acknowledge a source but do not put a quotation in quotation marks, in no rational sense is this plagiarism as that terms would have been understood 20 years ago. I have even seen people criticised for paraphrasing and referencing when (it is alleged) they should have given a direct quote merely in order to put quotation marks around the quote.

    Students are now being marked down for not following one arbitrary code of referencing selected by their university or department when their academics are frequently submitting work for publication that doesn't meet that publishing house's arbitrary code of referencing and is usually corrected by a proof reader.

    Now you are taking this a stage further and criticising another university for not having an obsession with meeting an arbitrary referencing standard.

    The test of whether your fellow student was plagiarising or not (or knew whether he was plagiarising or not) is whether a fair minded reader would have believed that material that was not in fact the student's work was authored by the student.
    I understand where you're coming from. However when you are attending university now, you are frequently told plagiarism is not accepted and that even if it's 'accidental' this isn't excusable which leads you to believe that referencing is naturally very important - you could potentially be chucked out of your uni if you are found to be plagiarising even if it by accident. If your uni requires you to use a certain referencing system they should at least ask that you use it properly otherwise what is the point? And if they are teaching incorrect referencing when, as someone else pointed out, it's fairly straightforward, what else are they teaching incorrectly?
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Too high. Until student grants came in after WWII (there were a few county scholarships before the war) the heads of most colleges worried most of the time about getting sufficient bums on seats. The cost of an Oxbridge education was considerably more than that of a boarding school education. Partly that was due to the source of most undergraduates. Over 10% of students were still sons of the clergy and by the interwar period the clergy generally had lifestyle aspirations ahead of their income. The (not so) USP of every college founded from about 1850 onwards is that it is offering a cheaper education than the older colleges.
    This makes me wonder whether free / affordable university education in England is actually an aberration in history. For many centuries England only had two universities, both of which were one step away from being culture clubs for the aristocracy and the clergy whilst highly intelligent people from more middle class backgrounds were exceptional cases. Scotland, with a much smaller population, had five universities
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    I actually will 1 V 1 David Cameron if he puts tuition fees up.
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    (Original post by Hazel37)
    I actually will 1 V 1 David Cameron if he puts tuition fees up.
    Why, because you have to pay a little bit more to provide for the poor.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    On the Switzerland model of only the top 20% going to uni I probably would not have been able to go to university and study physics, which is I wanted to do since I was 13.

    This is the difference between our ideological approaches. I'm supportive of education for it;s own sake, not just the benefits it brings in terms of pure economic output in helping the money making machine.

    You could leave school and be a bin man at 13. But I still think providing education up to the age of 16 (and now 18 in some way) desirable. I would extend that to university as well. All the types of arguments made against it were made by the Victorian era a to why we can not have every working class child in education past 13 and so on. Yet here we are.

    We should be moving towards more productive and automated societies. That allows humans to spend time doing things for their own sake, like studying.
    The problem is that many pupils don't understand what they are taught. School bores them. I don't see the point of forcing them to study maths or history whilst they could have started to work.

    Between having a job and no degree, or a degree but no job, I think the former situation is better.

    Being a bin man in Switzerland isn't that bad, considering the minimum wage is about £2000 a month.
 
 
 
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