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Are ISIS muslims? watch

  • View Poll Results: Are ISIS militants MUSLIMS?
    Yes.
    124
    42.91%
    No.
    77
    26.64%
    They are muslims. But not "true" muslims
    71
    24.57%
    Idk
    17
    5.88%

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    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    lol


    I'm not here to convince you I'm just telling you stuff. If you really want to know then go and find out.


    Sure whatever you say bro

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    You claimed this evidence was in the Quran

    Come on show me where this evidence is
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    No they didn't

    It was made by Imams and muslim scholars.

    It seem though, you know better than they do.......
    Firstly, Imams are muslim scholars. Second, there are only a few legal things which they have a consensus on. The nature of the sharia or rules of Islam are debated almost totally, with the Alevis for instance even drinking alcohol. When the scholars are all disagreeing, it means that every muslim looks for a scholar knowledgable about the opinions they agree with, and they follow some of that's scholar's rulings (after investigating how they came to those juristic conclusions) while researching what other scholars say as well as the source materials to develop their opinions. As they progress, they might find that there's no single scholar they continue to agree with.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Then why do so many muslim majority countries kill people or leaving Islam or have some for of punishment for doing just this?

    Why is it in the UK families have been know to try and kill their children for leaving Islam?
    What muslims do in the name of their religion, and what Islam (the ideology of Muhammad and his Ahlulbayt according to reliable historical narrations and their quranic exegesis) actually teaches are often entirely different. Muslims that think killing apostates is within the sharia are at a loss to explain why Muhammad didn't kill apostates during his own rule, one of whom would include his cousin Ubaydullah ibn Jahsh, who converted to christianity for instance.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Then why do so many muslim majority countries kill people or leaving Islam or have some for of punishment for doing just this?

    Why is it in the UK families have been know to try and kill their children for leaving Islam?
    Because they're stupid. Regarding the UK families, their mentality is even more pathetic. It's the same reason you hear about children being tortured/killed because they've refused to marry abroad. They believe they have all rights over their child when totally that's not the case. Islam didn't teach them to do that, it's their own misinterpretation.


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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    Firstly, Imams are muslim scholars. Second, there are only a few legal things which they have a consensus on. The nature of the sharia or rules of Islam are debated almost totally, with the Alevis for instance even drinking alcohol. When the scholars are all disagreeing, it means that every muslim looks for a scholar knowledgable about the opinions they agree with, and they follow some of that's scholar's rulings (after investigating how they came to those juristic conclusions) while researching what other scholars say as well as the source materials to develop their opinions. As they progress, they might find that there's no single scholar they continue to agree with.
    Ah so now your saying the document muslims have been using to show that ISIS aren't Islamic is Wrong!!

    You need to go an tell them not me they've got it wrong and are being dishonest again
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    (Original post by saad97)
    Because they're stupid.


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    Not good enough an answer when people are killed for leaving islam

    Why do so many muslim countries punish those who leave islam

    It's a simple question that if answered honestly might help us stop this evil
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Ah so now your saying the document muslims have been using to show that ISIS aren't Islamic is Wrong!!

    You need to go an tell them not me they've got it wrong and are being dishonest again
    ISIS are muslims. Whether or not their actions and policies are islamic is a subject of debate, in which my position is that they are not, because they contradict the example of muhammad (from -reliable- narrations, not everything in the contradictory 6 major sunni books of hadith) and the example of his Ahlulbayt. I'm not sure if you're saying that some muslims are using the quran to show that ISIS isn't islamic - which I think is part of the process of proving that they aren't islamic. There is a difference between being dishonest and being mistaken. The Ummah (muslim people) contains a huge variety of opinions on almost everything.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    ISIS are muslims. Whether or not their actions and policies are islamic is a subject of debate, in which my position is that they are not, because they contradict the example of muhammad (from -reliable- narrations, not everything in the contradictory 6 major sunni books of hadith) and the example of his Ahlulbayt. I'm not sure if you're saying that some muslims are using the quran to show that ISIS isn't islamic - which I think is part of the process of proving that they aren't islamic. There is a difference between being dishonest and being mistaken. The Ummah (muslim people) contains a huge variety of opinions on almost everything.
    Then you need to have the debate not with me as I am simply passing round what other muslims have said and loudly announced in the national press


    But can you clarify according to you the document the national press in the UK was given by various muslim groups to distance the UK muslim population from ISIS is actually worthless?
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The Ummah (muslim people) contains a huge variety of opinions on almost everything.
    For an ideology that is based on a book which proclaims itself to be clear, perfect and unambiguous Islam seems to struggle with what is Islamic and what isn't. Ironic, eh?
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    ISIS are muslims
    I agree here they are muslim.

    But can you tell you brothers and sisters on this thread as they seem confused
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    For an ideology that is based on a book which proclaims itself to be clear, perfect and unambiguous Islam seems to struggle with what is Islamic and what isn't. Ironic, eh?
    The Quran says, 'We have made this book clear and precise.' The 'making precise' of the book is in the appointment and role of the Prophets and Ahlulbayt. Muhammad was very clear in his farewell sermon that the Quran was not enough alone - that he had been tasked with delivering -two- things to humanity; the quran and his Ahlulbayt (beginning with Fatima and Ali.)

    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Then you need to have the debate not with me as I am simply passing round what other muslims have said and loudly announced in the national press


    But can you clarify according to you the document the national press in the UK was given by various muslim groups to distance the UK muslim population from ISIS is actually worthless?
    Firstly, the 24 rulings that they gave were not all correct according to most scholars of my school of thought, akhbari ithna ashari shi'ism. The yezidis were never considered 'people of the scripture' in the past, and the only way that we could conclude that they are 'people of the scripture' would be to evaluate their books and to conclude whether or not we believe, as a nation, that there is evidence that their religion was initially of divine origin. Since muslims are no longer a cohesive nation, it would be a largely pointless exercise. Point 24 is also completely false and has no back up. If someone finds themselves oppressed for their religion in an anti-islamic state, then they are allowed to emigrate to escape persecution.
    Point 22 is very interesting because in it, they (sunni scholars) have basically denied the caliphates of their own beloved 'first three caliphs' after muhammad, because a -lot- of people didn't want any of them in power. Point 21 is utter gob****e, which should be pretty obvious.

    However, if they really believe those 24 points and cite references that they believe prove them, I guess that they can dissociate their own beliefs about the nature of Islamic rules from those of ISIS fairly easily. What I find interesting is that these people (sunni scholars) have written 24 points which are mostly contradictory to the precedent shown by their first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman.)
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I agree here they are muslim.

    But can you tell you brothers and sisters on this thread as they seem confused
    I can tell them my opinions and back them up, but at the end of the day, if they wanna stick with their less valid ones... Well, I can't force anyone. *Shrug*.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The Quran says, 'We have made this book clear and precise.' The 'making precise' of the book is in the appointment and role of the Prophets and Ahlulbayt. Muhammad was very clear in his farewell sermon that the Quran was not enough alone
    Then Islam's claim that the Koran is perfect is wrong (as it isn't even fit for purpose).
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    Firstly, the 24 rulings that they gave were not all correct according to most scholars of my school of thought, akhbari ithna ashari shi'ism.
    I'm shocked at this that muslims can say here is why ISIS aren't Islamic without full agreement on this

    It's almost like were being lied to

    But many thanks for your honest input on this while alarming it is refreshing
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The Quran says, 'We have made this book clear and precise.'
    Why does the quran refer to itself as a book when it wasn't a book during the time of the revelations?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Then Islam's claim that the Koran is perfect is wrong (as it isn't even fit for purpose).
    The Quran is perfect as what it is - Half of the rope of god, not the entire rope. Muslims do not universally claim that the Quran is enough by itself. Only Quranists claim so.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Why does the quran refer to itself as a book when it wasn't a book during the time of the revelations?
    The word 'kitaab' in arabic is translated to 'book' in english, but the arabic word doesn't necessarily mean a written, compiled text. This is a language issue. And generally muslims are like what you said. Despite total agreement or alignment with what Islam's sources actually say, they'll run outside and make silly declarations. Point 21 is one of the few points on that document actually used by the sunnis since before they used the name 'sunni'. Their leaders would use it like a divine right of kings, religiously shunning rebellion so that all who didn't accept the ruler would be considered apostates, and then using the false ruling that 'apostates should be killed' (from fabricated historical narrations attributed to muhammad) as a religious mandate to destroy all resistance.
    Through this method, muslim rulers in history have found themselves able to perpetrate atrocities upon muslims and non muslims alike, as well as being incredibly unjust in various ways, such as increasing the 'jizya' tax (which is meant to be insignificant and symbolic) to an extortionate rate.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I'm shocked at this that muslims can say here is why ISIS aren't Islamic without full agreement on this

    It's almost like were being lied to

    But many thanks for your honest input on this while alarming it is refreshing
    Besides, the very point 21 in that document gives al-Baghdadi a mandate over the people that are under his 'authority'...
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    What a stupid question ofcourse they ****ing are you ****ing idiot.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The Quran is perfect as what it is
    Well, we both know it isn't even that. I understand it contains stuff copied from elsewhere, grammatical errors, and it certainly contains historical errors, scientific errors, contradictions about punishments, religious compulsion, doubts about lengths of days that aren't days, all sorts of things.
 
 
 
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