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    (Original post by jam277)
    Or that you've got a manager who will actually sort out your championship level central midfielders.
    fernandinho and delph championship? two of the best in the league
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    Here's the problem with the conversation so far:

    "Give me evidence of God."
    "Sure. Here are first-hand accounts of people who claim to have spoken to God."
    "First-hand evidence isn't evidence!"
    "Okay. What will you accept as evidence?"
    "EVIDENCE!"
    "First-hand evidence is evidence."
    "NOT FIRST HAND EVIDENCE!"
    "Okay, what will you accept as evidence?"
    "EVIDENCE!"
    "You've already dismissed an entire primary source of evidence. Are there any other primary sources you'll dismiss?"
    "I JUST WANT EVIDENCE!"
    "You're just going around in circles now. You want evidence, then dismiss the largest source of evidence courts accept. I'd love to help but until you actually define what you will accept as evidence it's just going to be frustrating you to talk to us. Could you please tell us what type of evidence you will accept?"
    "EEEEEHHHHHVIIIIIIIIDEEEEEEEEEEN CE!!!!!"

    So, for the twelfth time, I will ask: What type of evidence will you accept? Please be specific.
    ok clearly you are a bit simple. lets try and get past this definition of evidence thing. give me another example of proof of god ( i assume you must have more than just one piece of evidence )
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I never understood what it was supposed to prove, it just always seems a circular argument. :confused:
    I personally see it as a weak argument
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    (Original post by mangala)
    ok clearly you are a bit simple. lets try and get past this definition of evidence thing. give me another example of proof of god ( i assume you must have more than just one piece of evidence )
    There are many proofs of God. I'm not sure what you're looking for - So if you could just prove to me that you exist as I challenged the other fellow, I will endeavor to use the same methodology you use to show God exists.

    Specifically: Prove to me you exist in a way that, as you said, cannot be explained away by someone being either mad, sick or someone having an agenda to prove you exist.

    When you provide that scientific proof - The proof that you exist - I will know what sort of proof you're looking for and I'll be able to use the same methodology. You're the scientist here so this should be no problem - After all, you're in the same room as yourself.
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    There are many proofs of God. I'm not sure what you're looking for - So if you could just prove to me that you exist as I challenged the other fellow, I will endeavor to use the same methodology you use to show God exists.

    Specifically: Prove to me you exist in a way that, as you said, cannot be explained away by someone being either mad, sick or someone having an agenda to prove you exist.

    When you provide that scientific proof - The proof that you exist - I will know what sort of proof you're looking for and I'll be able to use the same methodology. You're the scientist here so this should be no problem - After all, you're in the same room as yourself.
    1. you can see me
    2. i leave DNA evidence
    4. there are legal documents confirming my existence
    5. i do not contradict any laws of physics
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    (Original post by mangala)
    1. you can see me
    2. i leave DNA evidence
    4. there are legal documents confirming my existence
    5. i do not contradict any laws of physics
    1) You can see God.
    2) The whole universe is his DNA evidence.
    3) Courts of law have people swearing in on bibles, making the bible one of the largest 'legal documents' in existence.
    4) Newtonian or Quantum? On a quantum level, you violate numerous laws of physics.

    There! Proof God exists according to the same proofs you required - Your first point was simple 'Fiat' - I actually cannot see you, but I trust you when you say you can be seen. Other people have seen God, so... Oh, wait. That's first person evidence once more. I apologize - Point one is useless for both you and God. You haven't proven yourself and I haven't proven God with that.

    Point 2 is your quote by fiat - I accept that you leave DNA evidence, but I'm again taking your word for it. I guess point 2 doesn't count for you OR God, either.

    Point 3 - Again, I trusted that you have legal documents, but that's you giving me first person proofs. So you failed to prove yourself there. God, on the other hand, can be seen in everything from American currency to other legal documents.

    Point 4 was actually incorrect. You violate several classical Newtonian physics on a quantum level.

    So... I apologize - You failed to prove yourself while God, according to your laws, was 1/4. So technically God is more proveable than you. Hmm...

    Care to try again? Maybe you can be just as real as God next time.
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    1) You can see God.
    2) The whole universe is his DNA evidence.
    3) Courts of law have people swearing in on bibles, making the bible one of the largest 'legal documents' in existence.
    4) Newtonian or Quantum? On a quantum level, you violate numerous laws of physics.

    There! Proof God exists according to the same proofs you required - Your first point was simple 'Fiat' - I actually cannot see you, but I trust you when you say you can be seen. Other people have seen God, so... Oh, wait. That's first person evidence once more. I apologize - Point one is useless for both you and God. You haven't proven yourself and I haven't proven God with that.

    Point 2 is your quote by fiat - I accept that you leave DNA evidence, but I'm again taking your word for it. I guess point 2 doesn't count for you OR God, either.

    Point 3 - Again, I trusted that you have legal documents, but that's you giving me first person proofs. So you failed to prove yourself there. God, on the other hand, can be seen in everything from American currency to other legal documents.

    Point 4 was actually incorrect. You violate several classical Newtonian physics on a quantum level.

    So... I apologize - You failed to prove yourself while God, according to your laws, was 1/4. So technically God is more proveable than you. Hmm...

    Care to try again? Maybe you can be just as real as God next time.
    good one that old guy.

    you do make me chuckle!
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    1) You can see God.
    2) The whole universe is his DNA evidence.
    3) Courts of law have people swearing in on bibles, making the bible one of the largest 'legal documents' in existence.
    4) Newtonian or Quantum? On a quantum level, you violate numerous laws of physics.

    There! Proof God exists according to the same proofs you required - Your first point was simple 'Fiat' - I actually cannot see you, but I trust you when you say you can be seen. Other people have seen God, so... Oh, wait. That's first person evidence once more. I apologize - Point one is useless for both you and God. You haven't proven yourself and I haven't proven God with that.

    Point 2 is your quote by fiat - I accept that you leave DNA evidence, but I'm again taking your word for it. I guess point 2 doesn't count for you OR God, either.

    Point 3 - Again, I trusted that you have legal documents, but that's you giving me first person proofs. So you failed to prove yourself there. God, on the other hand, can be seen in everything from American currency to other legal documents.

    Point 4 was actually incorrect. You violate several classical Newtonian physics on a quantum level.

    So... I apologize - You failed to prove yourself while God, according to your laws, was 1/4. So technically God is more proveable than you. Hmm...

    Care to try again? Maybe you can be just as real as God next time.
    1. you literally cannot see god, otherwise i'd know he's real
    2. i don't think you understand what DNA is
    3. that means absolutely nothing
    4. i violate no laws of physics, i exist within the universe.

    im 100% sure you're just trolling so i will end it here
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Personally, I have been through far too many experiences, which have all in all confirmed my belief in a greater deity. I believe its more or less the same for the rest of the people that believe in God too.
    But how many of those had rational explanations? All of them, I'd bet.
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    (Original post by mangala)
    scientific, logical evidence which points towards the existence of god

    convert me from atheism

    I'm back

    WMAP - The mapping of the knowledge, by the scientific community, of how the universe, from initial creation, to the rings showing the expansion of the universe - where we sit now.

    The initial burst of creation - Genesis 1:1-2In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters

    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...h,-Creation-Of

    ....to the expansion universe - "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:Isaiah 42:5

    He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
    Jeremiah 51:15

    He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.Job 26:7

    http://www.creationists.org/God-stre...le-verses.html



    Science has proved God - nice 5 minute clip
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVm8RokoBA
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    1) You can see God.
    2) The whole universe is his DNA evidence.
    3) Courts of law have people swearing in on bibles, making the bible one of the largest 'legal documents' in existence.
    4) Newtonian or Quantum? On a quantum level, you violate numerous laws of physics.

    There! Proof God exists according to the same proofs you required - Your first point was simple 'Fiat' - I actually cannot see you, but I trust you when you say you can be seen. Other people have seen God, so... Oh, wait. That's first person evidence once more. I apologize - Point one is useless for both you and God. You haven't proven yourself and I haven't proven God with that.

    Point 2 is your quote by fiat - I accept that you leave DNA evidence, but I'm again taking your word for it. I guess point 2 doesn't count for you OR God, either.

    Point 3 - Again, I trusted that you have legal documents, but that's you giving me first person proofs. So you failed to prove yourself there. God, on the other hand, can be seen in everything from American currency to other legal documents.

    Point 4 was actually incorrect. You violate several classical Newtonian physics on a quantum level.

    So... I apologize - You failed to prove yourself while God, according to your laws, was 1/4. So technically God is more proveable than you. Hmm...

    Care to try again? Maybe you can be just as real as God next time.
    This made me laugh so hard that I choked on my lemonade!

    1) You cannot see "God," or any supernatural being for that matter. There is no test which could be done to confirm or falsify the existence of anything supernatural. Therefore we must assume that the idea is false because all un-testable ideas are invalid.

    2) The universe =/= DNA. DNA is a rather large double helix shaped-molecule (or collection of molecules if you want to get technical - hydrogen bonds =/= chemical bonds). The universe is everything in existence, including but not limited to DNA. In addition to this, since the idea is invalid anyway nothing can be considered evidence towards it or proof of it.

    3) Again, God cannot be seen. The bible cannot be used as evidence for or proof of anything because it is based on superstition and has no scientific credibility whatsoever.

    4) The classical laws are merely approximations. They work for everyday systems because on the size scales we're used to quantum effects are negligible. You violate no laws of physics on the quantum level because of this, as the classical laws can only be applied to our normal size range.

    I'm a physicist by the way, so I know what I'm talking about.
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    (Original post by Racoon)
    I'm back

    WMAP - The mapping of the knowledge, by the scientific community, of how the universe, from initial creation, to the rings showing the expansion of the universe - where we sit now.

    The initial burst of creation - Genesis 1:1-2In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters

    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...h,-Creation-Of

    ....to the expansion universe - "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:Isaiah 42:5

    He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
    Jeremiah 51:15

    He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.Job 26:7

    http://www.creationists.org/God-stre...le-verses.html



    Science has proved God - nice 5 minute clip
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVm8RokoBA
    LMAO! This proves jack.

    Clearly you do not have any scientific knowledge as what you've said here is meaningless. Firstly I will set aside my scientific knowledge and use nothing but logic to disprove this. Then I will use my knowledge to do so.

    In Genesis 1:1-2 it mentions God moving over the surface of water. However, in order for water to exist it had to be created first, but nowhere in the bible is this mentioned. So you have to assume that the water was already there, which contradicts what the bible says about God creating everything. It also says that the earth was formless and then goes on to say that people were magically poofed into existence on it. But if it was formless then it has no substance so the people would've fallen through it and drifted off into space where they'd have died. Two major holes in the bible's account! I mean the kind of hole where you have to scrap your whole damn pipe because it's impossible to fix - that kind of major.

    Now with my knowledge:

    Job 26:7 says the north was stretched out, but we have found that the universe is expanding in every direction so clearly Job 26:7 is wrong. It also says that the Earth is hanging on nothing, which we know to be false. It is suspended in it's orbit around the sun due to gravitational attraction.

    Isaiah 42:5 says that everything was created at once, with all the species alive today. This has been proven to be so abhorrently wrong that it's poison to the ears and eyes to even see/hear such a thing. Evolution disproved this, therefore the bible is wrong again.

    Genesis 1:1-2 Says that the heavens and earth were created simultaneously. This is again so badly incorrect that no derogatory statement does it justice. We know this to be the case because we can observe the processes that form stars and planets. They do not just poof into existence. Even if they did, the conditions during the big bang were so severe that it would've all been blown to smithereens in no time at all.

    As a final word on this, I'd like to point out that the scientific community has declared religion to be nothing but pseudoscience, and every attempt to prove religions using science have been given the same label. Pseudoscience is something which is presented in a scientific manner, but which has no academic credibility whatsoever and has been dismissed by the scientific community as pure folly.
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    (Original post by mangala)
    1. you literally cannot see god, otherwise i'd know he's real
    2. i don't think you understand what DNA is
    3. that means absolutely nothing
    4. i violate no laws of physics, i exist within the universe.

    im 100% sure you're just trolling so i will end it here
    1. You can literally see God. Several people claim to have - Moses, Mohammed, Buddha(Several, in fact) to name a few. The fact that you haven't is simply the same as me claiming you can't be real because I haven't seen you. Again, we're at 1st person testimonies so that means nothing.

    2) This isn't an argument - Again, you haven't proven you leave DNA evidence. You just claimed it - First person testimonies aren't acceptable as you've said.

    3) God appears on American currency - "In God We Trust". On the back of said bill is the legally binding statement: "This currency is legal tender." - If you're now going back and saying that legal paperwork doesn't count, I'll accept that, but it means you're discounting yet another 'Proof' - One that you used to try to prove your existence.

    4) You actually do. Here is an example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_%28physics%29

    Everyone does - Literally everyone and everything on a quantum level violate Newtonian Physics principles.

    However, I have to admit to being even more confused. Since you now are claiming that legal documents do not prove existence(One of the proofs you used for yourself) and that first person testimonies don't prove anything, you've now removed several options. You still haven't proven yourself as existing and I am no closer to knowing what proofs you -would- accept.

    Care to try proving your own existence again? I'll use your same methodology to prove God's existence.
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    (Original post by Racoon)
    I'm back

    WMAP - The mapping of the knowledge, by the scientific community, of how the universe, from initial creation, to the rings showing the expansion of the universe - where we sit now.

    The initial burst of creation - Genesis 1:1-2In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters

    http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topic...h,-Creation-Of

    ....to the expansion universe - "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:Isaiah 42:5

    He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
    Jeremiah 51:15

    He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.Job 26:7

    http://www.creationists.org/God-stre...le-verses.html



    Science has proved God - nice 5 minute clip
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVm8RokoBA
    Matching bible verses to the big bang theory does not mean they are true. Before the big bang theory existed, you would've just picked different passages or said that they meant different things.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    This made me laugh so hard that I choked on my lemonade!

    1) You cannot see "God," or any supernatural being for that matter. There is no test which could be done to confirm or falsify the existence of anything supernatural. Therefore we must assume that the idea is false because all un-testable ideas are invalid.

    2) The universe =/= DNA. DNA is a rather large double helix shaped-molecule (or collection of molecules if you want to get technical - hydrogen bonds =/= chemical bonds). The universe is everything in existence, including but not limited to DNA. In addition to this, since the idea is invalid anyway nothing can be considered evidence towards it or proof of it.

    3) Again, God cannot be seen. The bible cannot be used as evidence for or proof of anything because it is based on superstition and has no scientific credibility whatsoever.

    4) The classical laws are merely approximations. They work for everyday systems because on the size scales we're used to quantum effects are negligible. You violate no laws of physics on the quantum level because of this, as the classical laws can only be applied to our normal size range.

    I'm a physicist by the way, so I know what I'm talking about.
    Peroxi, as a knowledgable person, i'll assume that you appreciate whereas standard physics is a first degree knowledge, philosophy, and in this case 'metaphysics' is a higher level science. And thus takes precedence and priority over physics, in any such, 'bar room debate'.

    But then you already knew that right??
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    There could be psychological reasons to believe in God :P?
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    1. You can literally see God. Several people claim to have - Moses, Mohammed, Buddha(Several, in fact) to name a few. The fact that you haven't is simply the same as me claiming you can't be real because I haven't seen you. Again, we're at 1st person testimonies so that means nothing.

    2) This isn't an argument - Again, you haven't proven you leave DNA evidence. You just claimed it - First person testimonies aren't acceptable as you've said.

    3) God appears on American currency - "In God We Trust". On the back of said bill is the legally binding statement: "This currency is legal tender." - If you're now going back and saying that legal paperwork doesn't count, I'll accept that, but it means you're discounting yet another 'Proof' - One that you used to try to prove your existence.

    4) You actually do. Here is an example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_%28physics%29

    Everyone does - Literally everyone and everything on a quantum level violate Newtonian Physics principles.

    However, I have to admit to being even more confused. Since you now are claiming that legal documents do not prove existence(One of the proofs you used for yourself) and that first person testimonies don't prove anything, you've now removed several options. You still haven't proven yourself as existing and I am no closer to knowing what proofs you -would- accept.

    Care to try proving your own existence again? I'll use your same methodology to prove God's existence.
    1. they exist within holy books, which i do not believe in so whatever is in them means nothing unless it can be proven by science

    2. im not saying the evidence in me leaving DNA evidence is me stating it - im saying you yourself and everyone else can check my DNA evidence

    3. how does god being on currency prove he is real? that's completely meaningless. i could draw an alien on it, doesnt mean they are real

    4. i said legal documents. among other things, prove MY existence - i'm not expecting you to find god's birth certificate.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    This made me laugh so hard that I choked on my lemonade!

    1) You cannot see "God," or any supernatural being for that matter. There is no test which could be done to confirm or falsify the existence of anything supernatural. Therefore we must assume that the idea is false because all un-testable ideas are invalid.

    2) The universe =/= DNA. DNA is a rather large double helix shaped-molecule (or collection of molecules if you want to get technical - hydrogen bonds =/= chemical bonds). The universe is everything in existence, including but not limited to DNA. In addition to this, since the idea is invalid anyway nothing can be considered evidence towards it or proof of it.

    3) Again, God cannot be seen. The bible cannot be used as evidence for or proof of anything because it is based on superstition and has no scientific credibility whatsoever.

    4) The classical laws are merely approximations. They work for everyday systems because on the size scales we're used to quantum effects are negligible. You violate no laws of physics on the quantum level because of this, as the classical laws can only be applied to our normal size range.

    I'm a physicist by the way, so I know what I'm talking about.
    Always glad to entertain!

    In order:

    1) Several people have claimed to have seen God as stated before. What you're doing now is what's called a 'Base Assumption fallacy'.

    2) I was using a metaphor. I apologize you didn't get it - However, that point was irrelevant as I can only take him(And you) at your word that you leave DNA. Since that is first person testimonial, we have to dismiss it as per the original ideals.

    3) Again, base assumption fallacy. You can claim he can't, but numerous people have said they have seen him.

    4) Absolutely true! So if one were to jigger about with things on a quantum level, they'd violate no laws of physics. You're right - I apologize. God doesn't violate any known laws of physics with miracles so long as they were performed on a quantum level. Thank you for this.


    Again, we're no closer to knowing if the original poster actually exists or not. Oh, dear.
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    (Original post by mangala)
    1. they exist within holy books, which i do not believe in so whatever is in them means nothing unless it can be proven by science

    2. im not saying the evidence in me leaving DNA evidence is me stating it - im saying you yourself and everyone else can check my DNA evidence

    3. how does god being on currency prove he is real? that's completely meaningless. i could draw an alien on it, doesnt mean they are real

    4. i said legal documents. among other things, prove MY existence - i'm not expecting you to find god's birth certificate.
    Thank you for the update!

    1) And I do not believe in you. Therefor, any words to your effect that you exist must be discounted.

    2) Okay - Show me your DNA evidence. Otherwise, I can simply say "God does, too." and you would be forced to accept it and welcome your newfound faith

    3) You're the one that stated legal documents were proof of your existence. American Currency is legal tender. Since you were stating that legal documents were proof, I obviously had to go by your claims and find legal documents with God on it. If you're claiming they're not proof, then you've now eliminated legal documents and first person testimonies.

    4) See point 3.

    There! Care to try another tack to prove you exist?
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    LMAO! This proves jack... which has no academic credibility whatsoever and has been dismissed by the scientific community as pure folly.
    a quote from the wiki article that old guy provided us with...

    Theories in physics like the Butterfly effect from chaos theory open up the possibility of a type of distributed parameter systems in causality. The butterfly effect theory proposes:"Small variations of the initial condition of a nonlinear dynamical system may produce large variations in the long term behavior of the system."This opens up the opportunity to understand a distributed causality.

    What this means for the lay person (you and me, and the standard tsr user), is that time can move backwards and forwards in the quantum, and thus 'real big and lived universe', with equal validity and reliabilty.

    The obvious example of this with regards to history, is 'war is written by the winners', so for example, whilst 'some' republicans may see vietnam as a victory, with time and common sense, this has come to now be regarded as one of the biggest defeats America has suffered. This also brings in to the science of politics, anthropology, the media and terrorism, all of which you need to have studied to fully understand this example.

    I'm sorry if you are stuck with this debate up in your ivory tower, but equally as the majority of the worlds population do believe in some kind of diety another, be him Christ, Allah, Shiva or Buddha, if we were going to be fairly democratic and take an overall vote on the issue, you would lose there as well. Okay??
 
 
 
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