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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    Why isn't it your own fault if you can't write quickly, again, if you have nothing wrong with you? The vast majority of people are capable of writing quickly, and again, if you have nothing wrong with you, you should be more than capable of writing quickly.
    I just asked you the opposite of that question. No-one would choose to write slowly. What has someone done wrong to deserve writing slowly? Yes, but what if you aren't capable of writing quickly?
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    (Original post by morgan8002)
    I just asked you the opposite of that question. No-one would choose to write slowly. What has someone done wrong to deserve writing slowly? Yes, but what if you aren't capable of writing quickly?
    If you aren't capable of writing quickly then you need to improve your writing skills to allow yourself to write faster. The only valid reason for not being able to write quickly is if you have something wrong with yourself, some sort of disability for example.
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    If you aren't capable of writing quickly then you need to improve your writing skills to allow yourself to write faster. The only valid reason for not being able to write quickly is if you have something wrong with yourself, some sort of disability for example.
    Ok. How do you suggest going about that? If you don't know of a root cause then any treatment is likely to be ineffective.
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    (Original post by morgan8002)
    Mathematics isn't a sprint. Ideas can take months or decades of work to see the implications. Problems can take centuries to solve. It's not so much about the speed of someone's work but the quality and originality of their ideas.
    I agree with this and your view on extra time in exams.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying regarding "processing what a maths question is asking".

    My argument in logical form:

    X finds processing a maths question more difficult => X is less able at (this kind of) maths

    This is not the same thing as (affirming the consequent fallacy):

    X is less able at (this kind of) maths => X finds processing a maths question more difficult

    Therefore your argument that maths (problem solving) ability does not rely totally on speed actually supports what I'm saying since processing speed is only the pre-requisite to maths ability, but there are other reasons (e.g. lack of quality or originality of ideas) why they might still be less able at maths.

    Hope we're on the same page
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    (Original post by morgan8002)
    Ok. How do you suggest going about that? If you don't know of a root cause then any treatment is likely to be ineffective.
    If nothing is wrong then the root cause is just a lack of skill, or idleness... The way to improve? The same way you improve any other skill... Practice.
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    As long as it doesn't instill an expectation of being spoon fed their entire life, and then complain 10 years later when an immigrant gets the job instead of them. The real world is most certainly not going to be as lenient, so if they can understand that and not blame others, then fair enough.
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    (Original post by Final Fantasy)
    As long as it doesn't instill an expectation of being spoon fed their entire life, and then complain 10 years later when an immigrant gets the job instead of them.
    Please be more respectful to others as you are just being rude, but I guess it's due to your lack of knowledge with disabilities. Extra time is not spoon feeding it's just providing extra support to people who may require it and the same support can be put into place in a workplace which the Equality act 2010 support. An allocation of extra time under no circumstances shows incapability to handle a job because if the right adjustments are made for the person.
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    Of course it's fair if there is something proven whereby the student needs that extra time. However I have to admit I've seen some people who seem to have an advantage with that extra time, although I can't judge because I don't know what their reasons for it is. if there was honestly no proper reason for them to have the extra time then they wouldn't have it, the people receiving it (as far as I know) all go through assessments for it.

    Kind of like some people needing to use computers in exams I suppose. Some agree, some disagree...but if you're on the receiving end of course you'd be fine with it, like myself.
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    (Original post by Tinka99)
    Please be more respectful to others as you are just being rude, but I guess it's due to your lack of knowledge with disabilities.
    I never said I don't have a disability. I have a decade of experience with it. And no, I'm not going to give people false hope thank you. I will instead try to help them.

    Extra time is not spoon feeding it's just providing extra support to people who may require it
    I did not say that extra time is spoon feeding. Go back and carefully read what I posted. I don't care about the extras in academia if it's needed as long as they aren't given some illusion and false hope when it comes to employment. Everyone should be given the best chance they can to succeed in their education. I have no issues with disabilities being supported in this regard.

    and the same support can be put into place in a workplace which the Equality act 2010 support. An allocation of extra time under no circumstances shows incapability to handle a job because if the right adjustments are made for the person.
    Indeed, officially and in theory, we do have disability and equality laws to help ensure that it protects and enables everyone. But don't assume that the employers and the recruitment process will necessarily see it your way. I will always hire the candidate that best fits the role whilst balancing it against the return on investment made. Don't care whether they have a disability or not, they will be tested on their previous work history and software development abilities to the same standards (and provisions made where requested in accordance with legislation).

    If one outperforms the other, they get the role. The competition and environment is very different, so long as you can understand that then we're good and you'll have all the support you require (medical, flexible working hours, equipment etc.). Just don't forget it's a two-way street.

    EDIT:
    (Original post by richpanda)
    so..? are you going to be able to ask for more time later in life? If you were working to crack a code or hand in a project that needed to be done urgently, you can't just get extra time
    This, essentially. I'm referring to high skilled roles. It seems the OP is young and naive with no experience of how things actually are in the real world. Spouting the equality and disability laws as if it's school all over again is delusional and to your own detriment. It will help to some extent, but like I said, employers are most definitely not going to be as lenient as schools.

    The competition and pressure is constant and increasing if anything. And not just on the candidates e.g. the recruiter is ultimately going to have to answer to their own line manager for any hiring decisions that fail in the short-term or missed deadlines.

    True enough, the system does get abused, but business is business and there's no shortage of candidates applying for the same job.

    It's quite irritating at times to the level of false hope and illusions given; when students believe they already know everything and then when it doesn't turn out the way they expected, the rejection hits them that much harder (mentally and emotionally) - careers advisors are partly to blame for this as well, and so are the company websites (though due more to pressure from the government), I've lost count of how many web applications and applicant tracking systems I've developed in the past where they 'pride' themselves on diversity, equality and GIS etc. but in practice, it's usually a bit different.

    You'll find it far more helpful to be aware of these situations and find out how best to plan for them - work out a strategy in your favour, for your own benefit.

    Once successful, the support is there and you'll find it to be a rewarding experience, as long as you continue to keep up with the business requirements. And when things go wrong, there is support there also. But it's getting past the initial stage first.

    I can't really speak for lower skilled jobs, though. It's probably a bit different.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    I agree with this and your view on extra time in exams.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying regarding "processing what a maths question is asking".

    My argument in logical form:

    X finds processing a maths question more difficult => X is less able at (this kind of) maths

    This is not the same thing as (affirming the consequent fallacy):

    X is less able at (this kind of) maths => X finds processing a maths question more difficult

    Therefore your argument that maths (problem solving) ability does not rely totally on speed actually supports what I'm saying since processing speed is only the pre-requisite to maths ability, but there are other reasons (e.g. lack of quality or originality of ideas) why they might still be less able at maths.

    Hope we're on the same page
    I'm saying:
    X is slow to process maths questions of a particular kind \nRightarrow X is less able at (this kind of) maths.

    This is slightly different from the negation of your above statement.
    I've pluralised to 'questions' because everyone will struggle on some question or another so you can't use single case in isolation to make logical conclusions.
    The other difference is "slow" vs "finds difficult". This is because in your original post you were talking about people being slow at processing questions. I'm arguing against that, rather than people finding it difficult to process questions.
    Being slow to process a question and finding it difficult to process a question are two quite different things.

    Finding it difficult is much more complex to argue about.
    Your statement above (with added pluralisation) is true if the questions are reasonably clear in my opinion. The terms aren't well defined enough to state it as a true logical statement though.

    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    If nothing is wrong then the root cause is just a lack of skill, or idleness... The way to improve? The same way you improve any other skill... Practice.
    How many hours per day would you need to do to improve? Some people need a few hours of sleep.
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    (Original post by xylas)
    I agree with this and your view on extra time in exams.

    I think you misunderstood what I was saying regarding "processing what a maths question is asking".

    My argument in logical form:

    X finds processing a maths question more difficult => X is less able at (this kind of) maths

    This is not the same thing as (affirming the consequent fallacy):

    X is less able at (this kind of) maths => X finds processing a maths question more difficult

    Therefore your argument that maths (problem solving) ability does not rely totally on speed actually supports what I'm saying since processing speed is only the pre-requisite to maths ability, but there are other reasons (e.g. lack of quality or originality of ideas) why they might still be less able at maths.

    Hope we're on the same page
    Just because it takes you longer to process a maths question it does not make you less able at maths at all, it makes it more difficult for you to complete a maths exam in the given time.

    Just because you have to read a question that tells you to differentiate some function and find the stationary points a couple of times in order to understand it, it doesn't mean that you are any less able when it comes to differentiating etc.

    Even at university level, what you have claimed is not the case. I am a student with "slow processing speed" due to my disabilities and I receive extra time, however I am also one of the most able mathematicians in my year (I have even been offered the chance to do a research internship and the chance to create my own projects to study as part of the degree as a result of this). I don't us coursework extensions at all, however I am the only person to gain full marks in each piece of Number Theory coursework this year and I am top of the year in several of the modules.

    I never dropped a mark in one piece of school work or homework throughout the whole of my time in school, so I wasn't bad at GCSE or A-level mathematics at all, I even self-taught myself my further-maths A-level and most of my maths A-level (achieving full-marks in nearly every module).

    I feel like part of the problem comes from you not completely understanding what people mean when they talk about "processing the question", and to be fair it is difficult to explain. It takes a few reads for the words to kind of connect fully if that makes sense, for my brain to just kind of register the sentence fully. So I am not wondering "What is differentiation? How do I find stationary points again?", it just takes it a bit longer for it to go from being letters on a page to a sentence with any kind of meaning in my head.

    I really don't like commenting on these threads at all, and I have been trying to avoid it, but I felt like I could maybe try a better explanation. While it is not dyslexia, if it helps you to understand more then maybe think about it like dyslexia. It feels like this slower processing speed thing is being misunderstood somewhat, and your maths comments maybe struck a nerve a little.

    I really shouldn't have commented, I am sorry.
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    Why isn't it your own fault if you can't write quickly, again, if you have nothing wrong with you? The vast majority of people are capable of writing quickly, and again, if you have nothing wrong with you, you should be more than capable of writing quickly.
    Yeah my brain doesn't work like most people's do. I learned to read in less than 6 weeks but my 8 year old brother's handwriting is better than mine.

    I have nothing physically wrong with me, my brain is just wired differently.

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    (Original post by morgan8002)
    How many hours per day would you need to do to improve? Some people need a few hours of sleep.
    Does it matter how many hours a day you would need? It could be an hour or just 10 mins... The point is, practice is there.

    You also seem to think people can't take even an hour out of their time to do something. Very few people are in a position where they honestly can't give up as little as an hour of their time.

    (Original post by Katty3)
    Yeah my brain doesn't work like most people's do. I learned to read in less than 6 weeks but my 8 year old brother's handwriting is better than mine.

    I have nothing physically wrong with me, my brain is just wired differently.

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    Cool story... I'm talking about the speed of writing... Maybe you didn't learn to read as well as you thought you did...
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    Does it matter how many hours a day you would need? It could be an hour or just 10 mins... The point is, practice is there.

    You also seem to think people can't take even an hour out of their time to do something. Very few people are in a position where they honestly can't give up as little as an hour of their time.


    Cool story... I'm talking about the speed of writing... Maybe you didn't learn to read as well as you thought you did...
    Yes I did learn to read very effectively. I have dyspraxia which means that I have issues surrounding: coordination, balance, organisation, following processes, concentration, fine motor skills, structuring my thoughts when I speak, notetaking and not reading!

    Imagine a spider walking across a page whilst covered in ink. That's basically my writing.

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    had to do 5 hours of straight mind numbing tests to confirm I have a form of dyslexia, extra time was forced upon me.
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    (Original post by Katty3)
    Yes I did learn to read very effectively. I have dyspraxia which means that I have issues surrounding: coordination, balance, organisation, following processes, concentration, fine motor skills, structuring my thoughts when I speak, notetaking and not reading!

    Imagine a spider walking across a page whilst covered in ink. That's basically my writing.

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    Again... I really don't think you can read as well as you think you can. I've mentioned, several times, that people who have something wrong with themselves have a reason for poor writing skills.
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    Again... I really don't think you can read as well as you think you can. I've mentioned, several times, that people who have something wrong with themselves have a reason for poor writing skills.
    Yes I can read perfectly well. I had a reading age off the charts consistently from the age of 7. I was reading the likes of Charlotte Brontë and Charles Dickens when I was still in primary school. I think I can read.

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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    Does it matter how many hours a day you would need? It could be an hour or just 10 mins... The point is, practice is there.

    You also seem to think people can't take even an hour out of their time to do something. Very few people are in a position where they honestly can't give up as little as an hour of their time.
    It does matter, since it has to be viable to do that amount of practice. I'm just saying anecdotally that it doesn't matter whether I write for 18 hours a day or 5 min a day for a large number of consecutive days; it's not going to change my writing speed. If you're correct then there must be some highly non-linear relationship between practice per day and writing speed and you need to do more than 18 hours each day to receive any benefit. It's obviously not feasible to spend weeks/months before each exam extremely sleep deprived so this isn't really an option for most/all people.

    What did I say to make you think that? I think people need to be careful about how they use their time but have no objection to them using it if they think it's a good usage.
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    Extra time is fine for people who actually need it - not for people who have suddenly decided that they're dyslexic because they want more time in the English exams! The amount of people in my school who are faking learning disabilities is alarming. There isn't enough room in the other exam rooms for everyone who wants extra time now, so people who really need the help could miss out, which defeats the point of extra time altogether.
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    But you would be, quite categorically and measurably a slow thinker regardless of cause.

    Yes if you had a severe impairment then you'd need to talk to your prospective employer, but most people are not severe and have no obligation to mention it. If they did, an employer could argue that they required someone who could process information quickly to make fast decisions, for example, and that the person with a slow processing speed, whilst not their fault, is not suited to the job. In the same way that a double amputee could not be a manual labourer. It's not discrimination, they just can't do the job.

    I'm sorry but out there in the real world you don't have the benefit of all these exceptions being made for you, and often you are not treated in a particularly compliant way because you do not have the power to challenge an employer without negatively affecting your own prospects.
    It's sickly sweet... almost adorable, that they're absolutely convinced employers are lovely bunnies in a fairytale and will always follow the rules and laws to a letter. Yep, if it's supposed to work in theory then it must surely work in practice right? I'm sure they have extensive experience of the real world in such areas. :rolleyes:

    Many companies outsource their recruitment process to companies that provide ATS (applicant tracking systems) as a service. One of my previous roles was spent just over a year working on these systems and we dealt with some pretty big clients. What many candidates don't often realise is how automated the system is, for instance there's various 'sifting' levels e.g. any employment gaps or criminal history generally result in a hard or killer sift status (3 - 5 working days waiting then a rejection, or immediate rejection the following working day) with the variables and dynamic email templates defined by the client.

    What they also don't realise is how much is actually known about them and their history - since there's such a huge number of applicants, about 75% (hundreds, sometimes thousands) are soft/hard sifted and don't make it to the various subsequent stages... by the final stage there's probably about 10 candidates left at best. After the tailored tests and assessment centres they continue to learn more about them - yes they are constrained by disability laws, but in business-to-business relationships there's a certain level of understanding - it's completely different to business-to-customer relations, there's no expectation to appear nice or politically correct. The data held is used for stats and subjected to data-mining for various uses. Often the data is later used and/or shared. It's very rare to have little information on any person these days and I suspect that years later (to now, 2016), further significant advancements have been developed - there were definitely some interesting ideas before I left.

    Dismissals are taken very seriously too, and if not disclosed, they have a way of finding out and the candidate will be sifted - reasons are rarely given unless they've passed the final stage. If they do get the role, there's a probationary period just like any other job (usually 3 - 6 months). If you failed to disclose anything that impacts on your work and is later discovered, that's typically a week's notice at worse, or disciplinary action at best.

    Everything is all nice and sweet when it comes to business-to-candidate relations, and as long as you continue to perform, you'll continue to be rewarded, supported and treated very well - and if you fit in with the team, pass your probations it's generally all good. But if your work is being affected, things can turn nasty very quickly. And trust me, employers know precisely what steps and measures to take that cover their own backs and do not circumvent disability laws or cannot be proven that it was linked to this at all. Everything is recorded and it's in the best interest of the candidate to not cause a fuss lest they have trouble in their next job or career search.

    It's very naive for students here to think only the best intentions of employers and that they're strictly law abiding... don't forget that it's a business first and foremost. And the above is just the tip of the iceberg... the interviews themselves are a different story altogether, nothing is ever as it appears - on the face of it, yes everything is going smoothly and yes they will be obliged to provide you with reasonable adjustments - many don't mind it, as long as they are receiving something in return if they proceed with you. Long post, but still very brief, barely touching on anything here. I will say however, good luck to anyone that starts getting arrogant with the employer on disability/discrimination laws, as if that will somehow miraculously save you... reality check: they've been doing this for much longer than you have. Yeah life sucks and isn't fair and all, well best wishes in trying to explain that to them if you're unable to do your duties and/or failed to disclose anything. Best thing you can do for yourself is acquire alternative skills, coping mechanisms and determine exactly what you need to help you through this before you begin full-time employment in a high skilled role (if a high skilled role is what you're aiming for).
 
 
 
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