Eu: In or out?

Announcements
  • View Poll Results: Should be stay a member or leave?
    Stay
    58.13%
    Leave
    41.87%

    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by markova21)
    Ooh i'll take the pizza any day of the week so yes. I am,however a teetotaller so shall decline your beer invitation.
    Congratulations!

    You are now Member #5 of the Church of Gaben!
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by markova21)
    From what I can tell judging by people I have spoken to ,in person and complete strangers on Twitter,for example is this. The people who wish to Remain are looking at things from a purely factual way. Whereas the Leave people [and I am most definately one] see things from an emotional perspective. Was speaking to one Remainer today who was saying about the economic arguments for staying. He said if we leave it will be really bad for the economy. I tried arguing with him that even if the economy suffers as a result of leaving ,and even if it were to suffer for the next ten or twenty years as a consequence,we had to look at the bigger picture. I argued with him we have to look at what our country will look like in 100 years time for our great grandchildren if things continue the way they are. We can't just look at the short term gains from remaining. He didn't understand my argument at all.
    I disagree. The economy comes second for me and the emotional ties come first for me - and I want to remain, not leave.

    Yes, the majority of 'Remain' voters are pragmatists whilst the majority of 'Leave' voters will vote on the basis of emotional cases of nostalgia, nationalism and/or xenophobia. Nonetheless, there is an emotional message and argument for 'Remain' which the 'Remain' camp isn't emphasising - and which it should do.

    The emotional argument is this: Britain has always been open-minded, forwards-thinking and outwards-looking, and these very values are what made Britain great and will continue to make Britain great in the future. Only by remaining in the EU - which is the only liberal, internationalist choice for the future - can the British mentality of liberty and openness prevail.

    The 'Leave' campaign casts a picture of a mighty Britain that does not collaborate with allies and that believes its own future is found within it. It believes that Britain is strong enough to survive away from the international, interdependent and globalised world and it believes that Britain was better off decades ago - when its sons and daughters were being massacred fighting the Germans on foreign soil.

    This is not true, was never true and will never be true. Instead, Britain has always appreciated the value of international collaboration and freedom - and indeed it collaborated with its allies and its colonies whilst fighting tyrants to preserve its cherished values of liberty and openness.

    The narrow-brained, backwards-being, inwards-depricating Britain that the Leave campaign wants does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist in the future. In fact, voting 'Leave' isn't even remotely patriotic: it threatens the UK's economy and it threatens the UK's own future as it will increase the likelihood of Scottish independence and possibly even Northern Irish seccessionism. If being patriotic means wanting what's best for your country, then there is no act less patriotic than voting to 'Leave'.

    The 'Leave' campaign is therefore a dangerous con and a deceptive illusion promoting a 'Little England' that hasn't existed since the 18th century - before the UK even existed - whereas the 'Remain' campaign is arguing for the same open-minded, forwards-thinking and outwards-looking Britain that believes in internationalism, freedom and cooperation - and that will export these same values to the outer world through remaining in the EU. This is the Britain that believes in liberty and openness, that has always existed, that exists today and will continue to exist in the future.

    One hundred years ago, British soldiers were being massacred in France at the hands of the Germans because they believed in the British values of liberty and openness and because they believed in European peace. After all, it was 'the War to End All Wars'. The year now is 2016, not 1916: we are no longer fighting the French and the Germans, but we are working with them under our British values of liberty and openness and we are exporting these values to the wider world through a shared podium that stands as the world's largest superpower, largest economy and largest defence spender. This podium is the European Union - and however flawed it is, it is a necessary evil on the step to a larger United States of Europe that rivals the great superpowers of the world like Britain once rivalled the great superpowers of its own time.

    The 'Leave' campaign, rather than striving years into the future through closer European integration, reaches decades into the past by unravelling decades of European progress since the Second World War. It heralds a time when European borders stopped European freedom, when European wars massacred European generations and when European rivalry plugged European prosperity. The 'Leave' campaign wishes to return us to a darker era when Britain's values of liberty and openness were not yet exported to the rest of the continent - and, in doing so, it wants to diminish our own country's liberty and openness, the very values which underpin everything that Britain has ever stood for.

    This is a romantic argument stating that the 'Leave' campaign heralds a far cry into the past, whilst the 'Remain' campaign recognises that Britain's future in an ever-globalised world must be in a stronger and larger union than the very one with Britain is based on - a cooperation of allies sharing its values of liberty and openness. The British identity will always exist - but if Britain wants influence and power, it must collaborate with its European neighbours to export the values of liberty and openness it has always cherished further afield than Europe.

    There is no basis to the 'Leave' campaign's emotional arguments. Natonalist nostalgia would otherwise see the return of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and Napoleon's France. The European Union has locked the doors on every single one of those tyrannical regimes and has replaced them with a cooperative political union. We do not want to unlock that door again. Nationalism rose in the 1910s and the 1930s - it is a recurring nightmare to Britain's values of liberty and openness. There is nothing unique, nor attractive, nor romantic, about the 'Leave' campaign - it is just a dangerous con and a deceptive illusion of a Britain that does not exist, has never existed and never will exist.

    You are saying, essentially, that the deceptive illusion is a price worth paying for Britain suffering a 2% drop in GDP and a 20% collapse of the pound sterling - worse than the 2008 financial crisis. That is not patriotism; that is self-harm. No loyal, patriotic Briton would ever pay that price for the country and the people that they love. More importantly, though, no loyal, patriotic Briton would ever vote for a vision of their country that totally disregards the values of liberty and openness that are Britain's proudest exports. The past of Britain was in separate kingdoms, locked in centuries of European wars. The future of Britain is in a European superpower, celebrating in decades of European peace.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Well whichever side wins I just hope the other side [as it will be millions of people] respect the majority decision.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Do you believe instead that we should have no referendum at all?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Personally, my opinion is just that.

    The results of the referendum have vast significant effects on our society which will be lasting. I'm expected as a citizen to choose if we stay or leave, whilst I have insufficient knowledge to do so. I don't know why doing so would be a good idea.

    This would be fine if literature was made available or some form of education given (I'd love that) to all those expected to vote on the decision they are to make. But we're just expected to make it almost blindly.

    Democracy doesn't go so well when votes that are made are fabricated by the power of the media - but all is well if the general population are actually able to understand the area and make an informed decision. With so many going to university, I think there will be a lot of promise for the future (not to say that empiricism and evidence based decision making is exclusive to university education).

    Like anything, I think it should be given to those with merit to make such judgements (on evidence, and have a vast depth of area specific knowledge to draw on)... who should then be held to account by others to make sure that it wasn't made poorly.

    I feel it is maybe fair to draw comparison to professional practice, in which people are expected to not try and do more than they are able (particularly clinical; as error is much more likely). If I tried to do surgery after watching a YouTube video, I don't think it would go so well - much better if a trained surgeon did it.

    Then there is the political basis for the vote - wasn't it promised simply as a move against UKIP by the Tories? (as suggested - that it is their single primary area, so taking it away from them).

    I apologise - my knowledge of politics etc. isn't brilliant... but this is roughly where my thoughts lie atm.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by artz)
    if you leave, we take the french & italian restaurants back. Vote carefully, guys.
    oh no! Not the pizza!
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by markova21)
    Well whichever side wins I just hope the other side [as it will be millions of people] respect the majority decision.
    The majority voted the Tories into power, despite them constantly screwing up and never fulfilling their promises. I no longer trust the majority to make any correct decisions.

    If the majority happens to vote IN, I'll be happy though; but it's still not going to make me trust the majority because I doubt they'd make the decision with much reasoning to back it up. Half of the votes will probably be blind votes from people who don't actually care, or from people who stubbornly stick to one decision regardless of any information that should convince them to make a different decision.

    tldr; the majority are stupid, so I won't respect the majority decision either way. I'll be somewhat happy if the STAY vote just happens to end up winning out though.
    Offline

    3
    Sebastian Bartlett ThatDoesntTickle Naveed-7 Hachik0 AfcFob markova21 XcitingStuart Save.Me Jazzyboy plstudent DrLovejoy The gains kinggg newpersonage @

    Apparently the contents of the ballot paper come Voting Day has been leaked.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Personally, my opinion is just that.

    The results of the referendum have vast significant effects on our society which will be lasting. I'm expected as a citizen to choose if we stay or leave, whilst I have insufficient knowledge to do so. I don't know why doing so would be a good idea.

    This would be fine if literature was made available or some form of education given (I'd love that) to all those expected to vote on the decision they are to make. But we're just expected to make it almost blindly.

    Democracy doesn't go so well when votes that are made are fabricated by the power of the media - but all is well if the general population are actually able to understand the area and make an informed decision. With so many going to university, I think there will be a lot of promise for the future (not to say that empiricism and evidence based decision making is exclusive to university education).

    Like anything, I think it should be given to those with merit to make such judgements (on evidence, and have a vast depth of area specific knowledge to draw on)... who should then be held to account by others to make sure that it wasn't made poorly.

    I feel it is maybe fair to draw comparison to professional practice, in which people are expected to not try and do more than they are able (particularly clinical; as error is much more likely). If I tried to do surgery after watching a YouTube video, I don't think it would go so well - much better if a trained surgeon did it.

    Then there is the political basis for the vote - wasn't it promised simply as a move against UKIP by the Tories? (as suggested - that it is their single primary area, so taking it away from them).

    I apologise - my knowledge of politics etc. isn't brilliant... but this is roughly where my thoughts lie atm.

    Hello Dave!

    I just wanted to say that I 100% with you, in terms of educating the population. I was speaking to my mother about it the other day, and I was genuinly surprised by her lack of knowledge on the subject. What my mother knew was only stuff she heard from the media, or second hand information from hearing other people discuss it.

    It is highly imperative to our society that everyone is informed and aware of the implications of such decisions. Basic schooling (up to GCSE) did not teach me anything I needed to know. It didnt teach me about politics, democracy or even real life. It was only when I took A-level's in social science subjects that I learn more about these subjects, and then did my own research and form my own opinions.

    Now I make it a point to chat with my mum, teach her more about politics and even get my little sisters involved. You are never too young to start learning!

    That being said, I still strongly belief in democracy and I believe informed or otherwise, the public reserves the right to vote how they choose. In the same way a jury can be made out of 12 people, some may be bad eggs however the numbers will flatten out any bias etc and end result will be a fair decision made. Similarly our society may have some uninformed voters however I like the think the informed voters balance that out.

    I just had a brain fart moment and I have forgotten what other points I was planning on making...

    Ah well basically, INFORM OUR COUNTRY!
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FireflyGirl96)
    Hello Dave!

    I just wanted to say that I 100% with you, in terms of educating the population. I was speaking to my mother about it the other day, and I was genuinly surprised by her lack of knowledge on the subject. What my mother knew was only stuff she heard from the media, or second hand information from hearing other people discuss it.

    It is highly imperative to our society that everyone is informed and aware of the implications of such decisions. Basic schooling (up to GCSE) did not teach me anything I needed to know. It didnt teach me about politics, democracy or even real life. It was only when I took A-level's in social science subjects that I learn more about these subjects, and then did my own research and form my own opinions.

    Now I make it a point to chat with my mum, teach her more about politics and even get my little sisters involved. You are never too young to start learning!

    That being said, I still strongly belief in democracy and I believe informed or otherwise, the public reserves the right to vote how they choose. In the same way a jury can be made out of 12 people, some may be bad eggs however the numbers will flatten out any bias etc and end result will be a fair decision made. Similarly our society may have some uninformed voters however I like the think the informed voters balance that out.

    I just had a brain fart moment and I have forgotten what other points I was planning on making...

    Ah well basically, INFORM OUR COUNTRY!
    So what are the campaigns trying to do if not inform people? They might each only give one side and with splin (and some fantasy), but regardless they are informing
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So what are the campaigns trying to do if not inform people? They might each only give one side and with splin (and some fantasy), but regardless they are informing
    Dude I get that there is informing going on (thank goodness!) I just think there should be more. Education should implement policies in regards to teaching politics and such in to schools etc
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Audrey18)
    Sebastian Bartlett ThatDoesntTickle Naveed-7 Hachik0 AfcFob markova21 XcitingStuart Save.Me Jazzyboy plstudent DrLovejoy The gains kinggg newpersonage @

    Apparently the contents of the ballot paper come Voting Day has been leaked.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    fascist.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by FireflyGirl96)
    Dude I get that there is informing going on (thank goodness!) I just think there should be more. Education should implement policies in regards to teaching politics and such in to schools etc
    It really should not, there will certainly be a bias, the government of the day will set the curriculum and try to make it as bias as they can get away with in favour of their position, and then when it comes to the teaching the teachers will almost certainly throw on as much of a left wing, big state spin as they can get away with.
    Offline

    3
    (Original post by The gains kinggg)
    fascist.
    Never. No way!




    But I like this guy though.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    So what are the campaigns trying to do if not inform people? They might each only give one side and with splin (and some fantasy), but regardless they are informing
    Sure. But it doesn't help, at all... it seems.

    It would help if there were documents which could be read which have a lot of information in the way of statistics and evaluation, stratified by complexity so is accessible for all. Not necessarily that - and I appreciate these things are hard to do - but just anything with substance that would allow informed choice.
    But all I have come across personally are crappy fliers...

    If I didn't think that going out may be bad (lots of negatives I can tentatively envisage) whilst staying in is fine at the moment, I wouldn't vote because I don't feel competent to do so.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    It really should not, there will certainly be a bias, the government of the day will set the curriculum and try to make it as bias as they can get away with in favour of their position, and then when it comes to the teaching the teachers will almost certainly throw on as much of a left wing, big state spin as they can get away with.
    No matter how you try to inform others, there will always be some bias. Best way is to teach young people about it and help them form their own opinion on it.
    Online

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Kinda worried that the majority in the poll are voting to leave
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Audrey18)
    Sebastian Bartlett ThatDoesntTickle Naveed-7 Hachik0 AfcFob markova21 XcitingStuart Save.Me Jazzyboy plstudent DrLovejoy The gains kinggg newpersonage @

    Apparently the contents of the ballot paper come Voting Day has been leaked.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    What do you mean by psycho nutjobs? and who are they? Please explain.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    What do you mean by psycho nutjobs? and who are they? Please explain.
    Gove, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, etc.

    The hard-right Tory politicians, essentially, that want to bring back hanging, privatise the NHS, abolish the BBC, revoke same-sex marriage, invest in fossil fuels, scrap maternity leave and sick pay, curb the trade unions and impose their ideological regime of ruthless cuts and prejudiced cruelty on our cherished country.

    Behind the pantomime and charades of other arguments, the sole conviction of these MPs against the European Union is that it has singlehandedly prevented them from unleashing their hard-right Tory agenda on Britain through its burdensome "regulations" - not on business, but on politics. These Eurosceptic MPs have beef with the European Union and they want to leave it because it would enable them to inflict their hard-right agenda on our country.

    A 'Leave' vote is a mandate for these politicians to take over British politics and impose said agenda. Therefore, Brexit is one step closer towards Tory authoritarian rule.
    This is much like how many of the businesses supporting Brexit do so because they've been sued by the EU in the past for failing environmental regulations actually making their products safe for use. These businesses want to leave so that they can get their revenge on the EU that has protected us from unsafe, dangerous household products.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Southwestern)
    Gove, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, etc.

    The hard-right Tory politicians, essentially, that want to bring back hanging, privatise the NHS, abolish the BBC, revoke same-sex marriage, invest in fossil fuels, scrap maternity leave and sick pay, curb the trade unions and impose their ideological regime of ruthless cuts and prejudiced cruelty on our cherished country.

    Behind the pantomime and charades of other arguments, the sole conviction of these MPs against the European Union is that it has singlehandedly prevented them from unleashing their hard-right Tory agenda on Britain through its burdensome "regulations" - not on business, but on politics. These Eurosceptic MPs have beef with the European Union and they want to leave it because it would enable them to inflict their hard-right agenda on our country.

    A 'Leave' vote is a mandate for them to take over British politics and impose said agenda. Therefore, Brexit is one step closer towards Tory authoritarian rule.
    I dont like Nigel Farage and those other guys myself. They seem dodgy. However, Im sure the public will vote them out after 4 years.
    Still unsure on whether I will be voting stay/leave. Still thinking about it.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    I dont like Nigel Farage and those other guys myself. They seem dodgy. However, Im sure the public will vote them out after 4 years.
    Still unsure on whether I will be voting stay/leave. Still thinking about it.
    Good on you!

    It's nice to see someone not rushing to either extreme and willing to weigh up the pros and cons of either side - and willing to look into it rather than sleepwalk into an option nobody's really sure about
 
 
 
Write a reply… Reply
Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?
  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?
  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. Oops, you need to agree to our Ts&Cs to register
  2. Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: October 4, 2016
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Poll
Would you prefer to be told about sex by your:
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.