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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Except you failed to take into account that UK unis are not the only ones that offer an education. Students are price sensitive and many of them have to pay the money up front. If they become too expensive, then the students will just go elsewhere. UK unis are still under a lot of pressure and continue to fall in world rankings. Making them more expensive by arbitraily increasing the price will just make them go elsewhere.

    Your idea is short sighted.
    Wrong, there is a lot of excess cash out there, especially from many Asian students.


    My source: Literally speaking to people who work for university admission departments.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    demand doesn't outstrip supply for international students - universities fill up to the rafters with any they can get and pay hefty finders fees to agents who direct potential students their way (30% of the fees in many cases)
    Exactly, that is what I am saying.
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    (Original post by ZiggyStarDust_)
    Dude. Dude. I might be an ignorant sh*t for not knowing about loans.

    My friend might be an ignorant sh*t for not know about loans either.

    But I'm sure as hell not a liar.

    Don't ever call me a liar because I wouldn't waste my time posting a crock of sh*t lies when I could be revising. Everything I said was true.My friend and I were just ignorant of the loans system, ight? We didn't know. We know now. And I mean, seriously, I'm doing GCSE's. Don't expect me to be A* at everything "uni-based"And you're accusing me of lying? Dear God.

    You're a JERK.
    It really took you a couple days to come up with that response? The way you get offended by being called a liar but happily call yourself "an ignorant sh*t". Priorities.
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    (Original post by ZiggyStarDust_)
    ok so with the whole friend thing, she didn't realise the whole loan deal. neither of us did. so it looks like she probably will be able to afford it (we're both just ignorant sh*ts). she presumed she'd have to pay upfront. Silly.

    Yeah, the whole loan thing has changed my mind a LOT about Uni fees in general. I don't despise them as much I did before. But HEY.

    Why do you think Uni should cost money? I don't see why it can't be free. I mean, why shouldn't it be free? People act like it would be such a bad thing - but I just cant see it ever being negative.
    Saying you dont see why it cant be free maybe means you haven't thought of some of the potential implications (the money has to come from somewhere! especially with the huge amount of students going to uni these days)

    If uni was free (ie subsided by government again) some things would happen

    1. Support for disabled students and students from poor background would be cut straight away (its kind of happening already because 2 years ago the government started giving unis less for poor student funds so a fair few unis either cut or extremely took away from the bursaries, equipment etc) (example bristol in 2014/15 offered £6000 pound fee discount for some students, cuts came in and the next year it wasnt available anymore for anyone)

    2. funding for phds and post docs may reduce (though may not too as alot of this comes from research councils)


    Also on the government side

    1. loans for living may be stopped (as far as I am aware, when uni was free you couldnt get any money for living expect on certain courses meaning a fair few students couldnt afford to come to uni even though they're no fees for tuition)

    2. they may reduce funding that goes research councils which limits phd funding etc and research is very important

    3. Money will be drawn from other public sectors like the nhs, incapcity benefits, job seekers allowance (which is a good thing as some people are just unlucky and are out of work for a while), funding for schools etc because the money has to come from somewhere

    note most of this is my opinion
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Wrong, there is a lot of excess cash out there, especially from many Asian students.


    My source: Literally speaking to people who work for university admission departments.
    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Exactly, that is what I am saying.
    There are not excess students. Effectively the UK HE sector is taking all of the foreign students who apply or who can be dragged in.

    Whether there is excess cash is another matter ie whether putting up fees for foreigners would mean that the total amount paid by the foreigners who still came, offset any reduction in the numbers arriving is more uncertain and certainly wouldn't be known by frontline admissions staff.

    Immigration policy has an enormous effect on this, because like it or not, a lot of foreign students are buying a visa as well as an education.
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    (Original post by ZiggyStarDust_)
    yep yep yep

    I'm getting loads of sh*t for my previous post thank you for the extra sh*t. always a pleasure

    I know what a loan is now ok

    pls don't hurt me

    I didn't know. now I do.
    Not a problem, just dont act like you know what youre talking about then, others may read your post and be convinced that "another" person isnt going to uni due to finance, when this like i said before is a nonsensical issue.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    There is no need to lower yourself to insult anyone. You can do better. Anyway, it is naive because there is no evidence that a free model of education is sustainable without risking the quality of those reputations. If you look at the university rankings, the best universities in the world are either not free or they are brutally selective. Healthcare and higher education are different. Everyone needs healthcare at some point of their lives but it is not true that everyone needs higher education at some point of their lives. Hence, they cannot be compared. People die without proper healthcare, no one dies without higher education. Hence, healthcare needs to be universally available (aka free) while higher education does not need to be. If you are happy to contribute to society and are decently capable, you will probably get a job that pays decently and you will be able to pay the loans back and contribute to the system for future generations. Under the free model, which operates in many European countries, entry to university is way tougher and this works against people of disadvantaged backgrounds as they are likely to perform worse than people from other backgrounds. While the "free" in your model sounds desirable, it isn't. The current model is far from optimal but it is definitely better than the one you propose.
    I couldn't care less about lowering myself. it's worth it to insult you.
    Just because there's no evidence of free uni's being successful, doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Why not try it out? If we really wanted to, we could find a system for it to work. Scotland did, after all.

    You say "no one dies with higher education" and it does not need to be universally free.
    Yeah, well no one dies with further education either, yet that appears to be free. It just doesn't make sense. If further education is free, why can't higher education be free as well?
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    (Original post by CAPTAINSHAZAM)
    Not a problem, just dont act like you know what youre talking about then, others may read your post and be convinced that "another" person isnt going to uni due to finance, when this like i said before is a nonsensical issue.
    man,i don't even know what nonsensical means

    but ight, you make a fair point
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    (Original post by madmadmax321)
    Saying you dont see why it cant be free maybe means you haven't thought of some of the potential implications (the money has to come from somewhere! especially with the huge amount of students going to uni these days)

    If uni was free (ie subsided by government again) some things would happen

    1. Support for disabled students and students from poor background would be cut straight away (its kind of happening already because 2 years ago the government started giving unis less for poor student funds so a fair few unis either cut or extremely took away from the bursaries, equipment etc) (example bristol in 2014/15 offered £6000 pound fee discount for some students, cuts came in and the next year it wasnt available anymore for anyone)

    2. funding for phds and post docs may reduce (though may not too as alot of this comes from research councils)


    Also on the government side

    1. loans for living may be stopped (as far as I am aware, when uni was free you couldnt get any money for living expect on certain courses meaning a fair few students couldnt afford to come to uni even though they're no fees for tuition)

    2. they may reduce funding that goes research councils which limits phd funding etc and research is very important

    3. Money will be drawn from other public sectors like the nhs, incapcity benefits, job seekers allowance (which is a good thing as some people are just unlucky and are out of work for a while), funding for schools etc because the money has to come from somewhere

    note most of this is my opinion
    I hate to say it. but these are actually decent points.

    :^(
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    It really took you a couple days to come up with that response? The way you get offended by being called a liar but happily call yourself "an ignorant sh*t". Priorities.
    lol! you're a silly boy

    "priorities" you say. I think I need to explain this to you with arrows (silly boys need silly explanations)

    Ignorant sh*t -> Is what I am

    Liar -> Is what I am not

    What part of that do you not understand

    lmao
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    (Original post by ZiggyStarDust_)
    I hate to say it. but these are actually decent points.

    :^(
    Glad you can see other peoples point of view!

    I have normally found that with people who protest for getting rid of tuition fees and I raise these points, they have 1 of 2 reactions

    1. They say none of it will happen and everything will remain the same except we wont have any debt from uni, this is a stupid thing to think as money if a finite resource so if you spend more in 1 area (getting rid of tuition fees) then you have to take money away from other areas (thats face it, it would probably be nhs, benefits etc)

    2. They say 'tax the 1%', now regardless of the moral stand point of rich/super rich avoiding paying tax, realistically this isnt going to happen for 2 reasons, one these people pay someone/an organisation a fair bit of money to avoid paying tax and two, chances are the super rich fund an area of each political party so the party will not want to actively purse the people funding them (only appear to do so to get more votes etc)
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    (Original post by ZiggyStarDust_)
    I couldn't care less about lowering myself. 1. it's worth it to insult you.
    2. Just because there's no evidence of free uni's being successful, doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Why not try it out? 3. If we really wanted to, we could find a system for it to work. Scotland did, after all.

    4. You say "no one dies with higher education" and it does not need to be universally free.
    5. Yeah, well no one dies with further education either, yet that appears to be free. It just doesn't make sense. If further education is free, why can't higher education be free as well?
    1. That speaks volumes about your ability to engaged in rational conversation.
    2. There is no evidence that if you jump off of a high building while singing a Beatles songs backwards will not prevent you from dying. Perhaps, we should all jump off? Just because there is no evidence that something will happen, it doesn't mean that you should try. Especially if trying out involves a high price (millions of pounds in the higher education case and your life in the second example).
    3. Irrelevant example. The number of universities in England (about 110) is almost than 10 times the number of universities in Scotland (about 15). Among other things, this means that expense of funding them all is way bigger. Just to match the funding that Scotland puts into their universities, England would need about £20 billion (this does not include money to fund the tuition fees of every UK student at an English university). But it currently has only about £1 billion more in funding than Scotland despite England having almost times more universities (some of them in the most expensive areas of the country - hello London!). The free model works with Scotland as it has few universities (thus few places) while England has a staggering amount of universities (with a staggering amount of places). Well, you seem to want a system so how come how you have not found it yet? (all complete with a comprehensive financial model that shows that the system you propose is feasible given the current economic resources)
    4. My point was that higher education has a lower priority than healthcare because lack of healthcare can kill you while lack of higher education can't.
    5. Not relevant. A single university involves the maintenance of a huge number of buildings, IT and engineering equipment, salaries of a huge number of lecturers, TAs and admin stuff as well as all the IT staff and cleaners. An average further education institution has nowhere near the expense of your average university in terms of equipment (a HPC facility? no way!), lecturers (high profile lectures command higher salaries, that won't happen in your average college), IT infrastructure (a huge number of different systems all of them regularly dealing with scaling issues because so many people use them). Higher education is simply more expensive.

    You need a better argument about why higher education should be free and an explanation of how exactly it should be funded without a) harming the reputation the universities currently have and b) making it brutally selective (which would be a barrier to people of disadvantaged backgrounds). Insulting people will not make your point right nor will it help people who might be actually researching a way to make higher education free. All it does is harm your cause and those that work for it.
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    Perhaps they should introduce the assessment of teaching provision and employability with a possible outcome of some universities being forced to LOWER their fees if their teaching provision is deemed inadequate. My degree was just a joke really, hardly any lectures, all self-study, 2/3 full days a week at uni at most. Coming from Germany where a standard full time degree is pretty much Monday-Friday 9-5, I was pretty appalled. Thank God I paid £3k a year at the time, would have been pretty upset if I was asked for the current £9k.
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    (Original post by Shalo)
    Perhaps they should introduce the assessment of teaching provision and employability with a possible outcome of some universities being forced to LOWER their fees if their teaching provision is deemed inadequate. My degree was just a joke really, hardly any lectures, all self-study, 2/3 full days a week at uni at most. Coming from Germany where a standard full time degree is pretty much Monday-Friday 9-5, I was pretty appalled. Thank God I paid £3k a year at the time, would have been pretty upset if I was asked for the current £9k.
    The HE bill has gone through parliament now with the link between a good Teaching (TEF) score and the ability to charge higher fees removed.

    Even universities rated Bronze will be allowed to increase fees in line with inflation.
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    (Original post by lolakirk)
    Disgusting. Thats the Tories for you though, not surprising in the least.
    You do know that the party who bought in tuition fees in the first place was Labour, right?
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    (Original post by PQ)
    The HE bill has gone through parliament now with the link between a good Teaching (TEF) score and the ability to charge higher fees removed.

    Even universities rated Bronze will be allowed to increase fees in line with inflation.
    That's just tragic. What do they need the money for? Because it certainly doesn't go towards improving facilities or teaching standards. One of my tutors who was a department head for journalism talked to us about "biased media in Czechoslovakia" (circa 2008 and referencing as current situation), and how he wasn't sure whether Mr/Mrs titles should be followed by a full stop or not.
 
 
 
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