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    (Original post by h333)
    Jzk for that. Hmm....I don't agree with it whatsoever as it is clear to me it is haraam. And I had a few arguments with my shia friend regarding this....she does not seem to make sense to me ....and thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong with it....although I doubt she does truly.
    When I've actually spoken to several Shia on a personal level, they have had interesting opinions on it - they would personally never do it, and one of them in fact had never heard of it until I told them, and they agreed it sounded like 'halal' prostitution; they said they would look into it because they didn't like the sound of it...

    Obviously I agree that it has been made haram and that there is sufficient evidence to show that it has been made haram, and I believe the counter argument isn't strong; on balance, from the perspective of Shia, they probably see it as an issue like having up to 4 wives - not everyone wants four wives even though it's permissible, and similarly not everyone wants Mutah even though (according to them) it's permissible.

    Edit: It's interesting that in Iran where it I permissible, it is widely abused by the average people to have sex outside of (proper marriage) and there is a prostitution problem there.
    Although this is not a proper argument against Mutah, there is a stereotype that I had heard that if you meet an Iranian girl (actually from Iran), chances are she isn't a virgin. Naturally stereotypes are a very large exaggeration, and offensive even, however perhaps it's food for thought as to why this stereotype came about...
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    When I've actually spoken to several Shia on a personal level, they have had interesting opinions on it - they would personally never do it, and one of them in fact had never heard of it until I told them, and they agreed it sounded like 'halal' prostitution; they said they would look into it because they didn't like the sound of it...

    Obviously I agree that it has been made haram and that there is sufficient evidence to show that it has been made haram, and I believe the counter argument isn't strong; on balance, from the perspective of Shia, they probably see it as an issue like having up to 4 wives - not everyone wants four wives even though it's permissible, and similarly not everyone wants Mutah even though (according to them) it's permissible.

    Edit: It's interesting that in Iran where it I permissible, it is widely abused by the average people to have sex outside of (proper marriage) and there is a prostitution problem there.
    Although this is not a proper argument against Mutah, there is a stereotype that I had heard that if you meet an Iranian girl (actually from Iran), chances are she isn't a virgin. Naturally stereotypes are a very large exaggeration, and offensive even, however perhaps it's food for thought as to why this stereotype came about...
    I understand. But with my friend she seems to agree upon just to show love towards shiasm and to go against Umar RA...she really has unpleasant remarks about him. I still treat her nicely because we have to as Muslims and she really is nice to me and loves me as a sister (specifically because I did not judge her). Lol sometimes she talks as if I am against Ali RA when clearly I mention nothing of that sort and I would be the biggest fool. But then she says sorry as she realises she is wrong for making such claims.

    Yes I know that about Iran and have some relatives that are there for work and study purposes. Afghans and Iranians share some ethnic groups too so I know iranians but not all are the same completely. Some practicing and some completely clueless to the true teachings of Islam. but I won't generalise.
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    (Original post by h333)
    I understand. But with my friend she seems to agree upon just to show love towards shiasm and to go against Umar RA...she really has unpleasant remarks about him. I still treat her nicely because we have to as Muslims and she really is nice to me and loves me as a sister (specifically because I did not judge her). Lol sometimes she talks as if I am against Ali RA when clearly I mention nothing of that sort and I would be the biggest fool. But then she says sorry as she realises she is wrong for making such claims.

    Yes I know that about Iran and have some relatives that are there for work and study purposes. Afghans and Iranians share some ethnic groups too so I know iranians but not all are the same completely. Some practicing and some completely clueless to the true teachings of Islam. but I won't generalise.
    You are a very gentle soul in seeking peace with her, may Allah bless you; my approach would be to challenge her straight up if she was making unpleasant remarks, personally :lol:

    Yeah, I get you, and I didn't mean to generalise either, rather I was just saying that those were interesting just to think about :beard:
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    You are a very gentle soul in seeking peace with her, may Allah bless you; my approach would be to challenge her straight up if she was making unpleasant remarks, personally :lol:

    Yeah, I get you, and I didn't mean to generalise either, rather I was just saying that those were interesting just to think about :beard:
    Jzk. Ameen. Wa iyyak. I challenge her but not harshly, it is just she has no interest in Aisha RA and the Sahih hadiths. But then again she usually uses it (she was not always like this, something happened) and I prayed for her so May Allah guide her. Ameen.

    Nah no worries I understood what you meant. I know a lot but rather not mention, would be for the better.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Thanks.


    Well my question is that why do Shias (Twelver Shias) still allow nikah al-mut'ah?

    https://youtu.be/LaoZZDfvtBo
    You have been given answers by non-shia's on this issue. With the utmost respect, neither of these answers have done justice as to why we shia's allow the practise.

    It's not surprising to see that anyway, if you are not an advocate of a certian madhab, you will not go out of your way to provide the actual explanation.

    InshAllah sister, give me time and i will reply to you.

    It's a little bit difficult having a number of users here ask questions over several threads. Usually, when i get into discussions it is often three or four replying to me at a time, not on one thread, but grouping to do so on a number.

    I have to sometimes stop myself from using TSR because it gets time consuming.

    You have asked a wonderful question, and may Allah bless you. I ask in return, for you to withold an opinion as to why shia's allow it, until a shia brother in Islam like myself answers it, if Allah, almighty, gives me the health and chance to do so!
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    (Original post by h333)
    Jzk. Ameen. Wa iyyak. I challenge her but not harshly, it is just she has no interest in Aisha RA and the Sahih hadiths. .
    While we respect Umulmimineen Aisha, may Allah preserve her against all slander, and we deem it harram to abuse or slander her, at the same time sister, i believe i have presented evidence as to why we do not hold her in as high regard.

    It's not because we want to do this out of spite, or hatred. Rather, our aim is to obtain as pure sunnah of Muhammed s.a.w, and so, we need to examine the behaviour, past actions, and deeds of anyone who narrates or is in a chain of narrators.

    Again, this is only for academic purposes, but i would like you to have a look at the following (if you get time):


    3. What is the shia view of Umm Aisha?
    Spoiler:
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    We believe she is the mother of the believers, as are all the other wives of the prophet muhammed s.a.w. This means we can not marry them after the prophet s.a.w's death, as well as the fact they are required to hold higher standards, if they do good twice is their reward, if they do evil, twice is their punishment. The Quran is clear in this. Being in the very house of the prophet s.a.w, living with him, they have no excuse of going towards ill or wrong. If they did so, it would be twice as bad as anyone else doing so.

    However, having said this, we do not slander Umulmimineen Aisha. It is forbidden for shia's to do so. It is forbidden to throw insults at her. We do not believe she commited adultery, nor did she kill Rasullah s.a.w. These views are held by zealouts who do not represent the consensus in shia imami madhab.

    Having said that, we believe the idea that she was among the greatest of woman, or , the title she is often given as 'siddiqah' meaning the truthful, is called into question by verses in the Quran itself, and hadiths considered authentic by our brothers and sisters in the sunni school of thought.

    This is not designed to slander Umulmimineen Aisha - only to engage in a proper and academic discussion using evidences.

    Some may claim, well she isn't infallible'. But neither are a lot of people who would not have acted in the following ways and manners:

    Example one

    Ayesha said: “Safiyya, the wife of the Prophet (a), sent a dish she had made for him when he was with me. When I saw the maidservant, I trembled with rage and fury, and I took the bowl and hurled it away. The Prophet of Allah (a) then looked at me; I saw the anger in his face and I said to him: ‘I seek refuge from Allah’s Apostle cursing me today.’ The Prophet said: ‘Undo it’. I said: ‘What is its compensation, O Prophet of Allah?’ He said: ‘The food like her food, and a bowl like her bowl.’”
    1. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Volume 6 page 227 Tradition 26409
    2. Sunan Nasai, Volume 2 page 148
    3. Majma al-Zawaed, Volume 4 page 372 Tradition 7692

    The reviser of Musnad Ahmed namely Shaykh Shoib al-Arnaut declared the tradition to be ‘Hasan’ while Al-Haythami said:‘The narrators are Thiqah’.


    Can you imagine if another noble wife of Rasullah s.a.w, Umm Safiyya r.a , out of care and love has sent the prophet s.a.w food, and Um Aisha , instead of recognizing the time, care and effort this wife has taken into preparing this food, out of anger, takes the food and hurls it into the ground, which is not only an insult to Allah swt, as it is a waste of food, but now you have a smashed bowl, an act commited out of extreme jealousy, and Rasullah s.a.w , a man so patient, even at this point being angered. If you took the name Aisha out of the equation and asked any muslim about this sort of behaviour, they would consider it completely out of order.


    Example two:

    This time, even Allah swt has decided to reveal ayah's in the Quran about another event.

    In Saheeh Bukhari, a hadith deemed authentic by our sunni brothers and sisters, it is narrated:
    " Who were those two ladies who had backed each other (against the Prophet)?" Before I could complete my question, he (Umar) replied, "They were `Aisha and Hafsa."

    Allah swt himself reveals ayahs about this event:

    Noble Quran: "If you two [wives] repent to Allah , [it is best],for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants."

    "Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins."


    The event, accepted by both sunni's and shia's, is another one where Umm Aisha out of jealousy of another wife of the prophet s.a.w, makes a plan for him to be lied to, with another wife, so she could spark disunity between him and another wife, and to upset that other wife.

    I only have to ask, is it right and just to lie to the prophet, and not just make any lie, make a lie whereby you make him feel ahamed of his breath, and cause disunity between and another wife - so much so Allah swt reveals in the Quran that your hearts have deviated, and if you continue the way you are, there is a possibility of Allah swt divorcing you altogether with better wives?

    How can anyone play something like this down?


    Example three:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 168:

    Narrated ‘Aisha: Once Hala bint Khuwailid, Khadija’s sister, asked the permission of the Prophet to enter. On that, the Prophet remembered the way Khadija used to ask permission, and that upset him. He said, “O Allah! Hala!” So I became jealous and said, “What makes you remember an old woman amongst the old women of Quraish an old woman (with a teethless mouth) of red gums who died long ago, and in whose place Allah has given you somebody better than her?”

    Lady Khadija was the closes and most honoured of the wives of Rasullah s.a.w, for her immense sacrifice to Islamand devotion to Rasullah s.a.w. Aisha here, refers to her as a teethless old woman who Allah swt has replaced with someone better than her - meaning herself. In some narrations, this angered Rasullah s.a.w Again, can you see a pattern between her behaviour with those she is , with the utmost and highest respect, she by her own admission is jealous of?


    Example four:

    We not only find examples of jealousy towards other wives, arguably the one we find her most in opposition to is Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s

    Abdah b. ‘Abd al-Rahman from ‘Amro b. Muhammad from Yunes b. Abi Ishaq from al-‘Izar b. Hurayth from al-Nu’man b. Basheer, he said: One day Abu Bakr excused himself from the Prophet (saw) to leave him until he heard ‘Aisha saying in a loud voice; “By Allah, I have learned that ‘Ali (as) is more beloved to you than my father!”. Abu Bakr then came to hit her and said, “O daughter of so-and-so! I see that you raise your voice towards the Messenger of Allah?!”. Then the Prophet (saw) grabbed him and Abu Bakr left while furious. Then the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “O ‘Aisha! Have you seen how I saved you from the man?”. Then Abu Bakr excused himself and the Messenger of Allah (saw) made peace between Abu Bakr and ‘Aisha. [Khasa’is Amir al-Mu’mineen, al-Nasa’i, page 126, Hadeeth 110]

    Grading: Isnad Saheeh (Authentic chain)

    Points to consider: Why is she raising her voice at the messenger of Allah swt, in such a tone even her father is angered? Secondly, why do we find even the mere supicion that Rasullah s.a.w loves someone more than her father, , namely Ali a.s, anger her to such an extent she takes the name of Allah swt and raises her voice at the messenger of Allah swt?



    When Ubaidullah Ibn Utbah mentioned to Ibn Abbas that Aisha said “In his death-illness the Prophet was brought to (Aisha’s) house while his shoulders were being supported by Fadhl Ibn Abbas and another person”, then Abdullah Ibn Abbas said: “Do you know who this ‘other man’ was?” Ibn Utbah replied: “No.” Then Ibn Abbas said: “He was Ali Ibn Abi Talib, but she is averse to name him in a good context.”
    1. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Volume 6 page 228 Tradition 25956
    The margin writer of Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal namely Shaykh Shoib al-Arnaut stated:
    “The chain is Sahih according to the standards of the two Sheiks (Bukhari & Muslim)”


    This was also in Bukhari:


    Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3 hadith 761:

    Ubaidullah bin ‘Abdullah told me that ‘Aisha had said, “When the Prophet became sick and his condition became serious, he requested his wives to allow him to be treated in my house, and they allowed him. He came out leaning on two men while his feet were dragging on the ground. He was walking between Al-’Abbas and another man.” ‘Ubaidullah said, “When I informed Ibn ‘Abbas of what ‘Aisha had said, he asked me whether I knew who was the second man whom ‘Aisha had not named. I replied in the negative. He said, ‘He was ‘Ali bin Abi Talib.”



    Point number five:


    She raised an army against Ali ibn abi talib a.s. Some claim she was trying to avenge Uthman, but the consensus among all people is she made an error and repented. Rather than allowing the caliph of the time, Ali ibn abi talib a.s to sort things out, she brought dissent and took matters into her own hands, claiming the man in charge i.e Ali a.s, was not doing his duty.

    Now, some sunni brothers and sisters mention the khawarij, and how it was really them that caused the battle.

    But the heart of the issue is that she should not have roused armies to try to avenge Uthman, against the orders of Ali a.s and against him, and not caused fitnah and left the matter to be dealt with by the caliph of the time, and not opposed him.



    Sahih Muslim, Book 01, Number 141 :
    Zirr reported:
    'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.
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    **This is a special request to users, i understand some of you group together, which is your right, and post as teams, because you share the same ideology. Allow me to answer questions on a one to one basis, otherwise if three or four cluster together, it becomes very unfair, given the volume of questions i have to answer on several threads.

    All source of help is from Allah and Allah alone. May he grant us the ability to continue engaging in these discussions in a way which gives light to the heart, quashes misconceptions, fosters understanding, and promotes tolerance.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    You have been given answers by non-shia's on this issue. With the utmost respect, neither of these answers have done justice as to why we shia's allow the practise.

    It's not surprising to see that anyway, if you are not an advocate of a certian madhab, you will not go out of your way to provide the actual explanation.

    InshAllah sister, give me time and i will reply to you.

    It's a little bit difficult having a number of users here ask questions over several threads. Usually, when i get into discussions it is often three or four replying to me at a time, not on one thread, but grouping to do so on a number.

    I have to sometimes stop myself from using TSR because it gets time consuming.

    You have asked a wonderful question, and may Allah bless you. I ask in return, for you to withold an opinion as to why shia's allow it, until a shia brother in Islam like myself answers it, if Allah, almighty, gives me the health and chance to do so!
    Don't worry what was being said was not new to me. Although I have personally heard from Shias on this topic already, I really wanted your response too insha'Allah. I am actually not going to debate on it here though just want to see your view and if it matches other Twelver Shias.

    I know I don't know how you handle it...
    I am in no hury, I actually did not want to bombard you with so many questions so I picked one, after a long time.

    Ameen. Jzk. Wa iyyak.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    **This is a special request to users, i understand some of you group together, which is your right, and post as teams, because you share the same ideology. Allow me to answer questions on a one to one basis, otherwise if three or four cluster together, it becomes very unfair, given the volume of questions i have to answer on several threads.

    All source of help is from Allah and Allah alone. May he grant us the ability to continue engaging in these discussions in a way which gives light to the heart, quashes misconceptions, fosters understanding, and promotes tolerance.
    Ameen.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Don't worry what was being said was not new to me. Although I have personally heard from Shias on this topic already, I really wanted your response too insha'Allah. I am actually not going to debate on it here though just want to see your view and if it matches other Twelver Shias.

    I know I don't know how you handle it...
    I am in no hury, I actually did not want to bombard you with so many questions so I picked one, after a long time.

    Ameen. Jzk. Wa iyyak.
    May Allah bless you.

    Dear sister, from our discussions , it seems a number of things your shia friends (i am assuming they are around your age no?) have said show signs of not really understanding the issues properly, in the full context.

    I'm probably a lot older than they are, and while age should not really matter , many 15/16 year olds of all religions and madhabs sometimes get into debates arguing in ways they should not have.

    When i debate with my sunni brothers, or debate with salafi brothers or christian brothers, i try to find the one who argues best, and knows more than the people i have previously discussed with, and base my impressions on that, as well as the view of the ulema - and a consensus of them.

    Be careful of a shia or a sunni who seeks to try to belittle the other group, or convince you to hate the other group.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    You have been given answers by non-shia's on this issue. With the utmost respect, neither of these answers have done justice as to why we shia's allow the practise.

    It's not surprising to see that anyway, if you are not an advocate of a certian madhab, you will not go out of your way to provide the actual explanation.

    InshAllah sister, give me time and i will reply to you.

    It's a little bit difficult having a number of users here ask questions over several threads. Usually, when i get into discussions it is often three or four replying to me at a time, not on one thread, but grouping to do so on a number.
    Some of us are merely seekers of the truth.
    I entered this discussion to see where it lies and where the stronger more convincing answer lies.
    The spread of the questions I advised it is better to just concentrate on one thread.
    All the other threads have died out except for this one, and please don't reply to another thread. Just tag and reply here.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    **This is a special request to users, i understand some of you group together, which is your right, and post as teams, because you share the same ideology. Allow me to answer questions on a one to one basis, otherwise if three or four cluster together, it becomes very unfair, given the volume of questions i have to answer on several threads.

    All source of help is from Allah and Allah alone. May he grant us the ability to continue engaging in these discussions in a way which gives light to the heart, quashes misconceptions, fosters understanding, and promotes tolerance.
    We do not group together intentionally or post in organised teams or tactically plan how to respond to you (we will leave that to the Atheists who tag each other into threads), rather we naturally think alike and disagree with the same or similar things; that said, it is understandable that it is impractical because all of us are quoting you on many threads multiple times - indeed you are not an octopus - therefore Al-Farhan's advice of just sticking to this thread mainly is wise...

    Ameen.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    May Allah bless you.

    Dear sister, from our discussions , it seems a number of things your shia friends (i am assuming they are around your age no?) have said show signs of not really understanding the issues properly, in the full context.

    I'm probably a lot older than they are, and while age should not really matter , many 15/16 year olds of all religions and madhabs sometimes get into debates arguing in ways they should not have.

    When i debate with my sunni brothers, or debate with salafi brothers or christian brothers, i try to find the one who argues best, and knows more than the people i have previously discussed with, and base my impressions on that, as well as the view of the ulema - and a consensus of them.

    Be careful of a shia or a sunni who seeks to try to belittle the other group, or convince you to hate the other group.
    The majority of people I have dicussed with are mature and not 15/16 years old tbh. One of them is very experienced with these matters and actually older than me.

    However, I look more to proof than statements made by them no matter how experienced they are. I look at both sides and see where the logic lies more. And I ask Allah swt to show me the right path no matter how minor the matter may be. Now I can't make someone completely understand why I agree with one than another. But I make myself clear in real life. I have also told many times even to the Sunni Muslims to show me proof and not just think I will accept like that.

    From my experience though, I want to share that the Sunnis have usually shown themselve to be more clear and to the point than the Shias (real life and from other sources). Still I do respect them and not call them unbelievers etc as I am no one to claim such a thing. However, I do see bid'ah among the Shias more. I don't mean to offend you in any way. I don't know why they don't see this though, and why do I see this difference. For example, harming one self is haraam in Islam, yet the Shias says it does not matter as it is to show love to the Ahlul-bayt. And then are those that are from same sect but reject it completely. Then I see their scholars also favour it (eg tatbir). I just fear contradictions.

    I don't hate anyone but will disagree more like. That does not mean one can't get along with each other.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    We do not group together intentionally or post in organised teams or tactically plan how to respond to you (we will leave that to the Atheists who tag each other into threads), rather we naturally think alike and disagree with the same or similar things; that said, it is understandable that it is impractical because all of us are quoting you on many threads multiple times - indeed you are not an octopus - therefore Al-Farhan's advice of just sticking to this thread mainly is wise...

    Ameen.
    Thank you for the comment brother

    I never stated it was intentional, it is just that the same three or four users always post together (perhaps coincidently) on several threads. This is ofcourse, your right, and i respect that, and perhaps it is just the way the forum works, but it does make it very difficult to engage in a reasonable conversation.

    It's not just one or two instances, it is pretty much every thread i make , and on many of my posts.

    I have adopted a policy of reading, but not responding to many comments if i feel i will later address the consensus of them in a future post which covers the various facets raised in them.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Thank you for the comment brother

    I never stated it was intentional, it is just that the same three or four users always post together (perhaps coincidently) on several threads. This is ofcourse, your right, and i respect that, and perhaps it is just the way the forum works, but it does make it very difficult to engage in a reasonable conversation.

    It's not just one or two instances, it is pretty much every thread i make , and on many of my posts.
    I understand; recently (within the last couple of weeks) there has just been more points of contention, I guess, therefore more posts and counter-posts, starting with that thread about groups in Syria, then here, then our disagreement about the ISOC, then this more recent thread about what happened to that boy in Syria the other day etc, and obviously it all piles up...

    A brief mention: I do not mean to make this appear personal (my apologies that perhaps it has if I have followed you into another thread for example), rather mainly I am arguing against what I disagree with, and where necessary asking questions to further my understanding (like in this thread).

    I first ask for this for myself and then everyone else: may Allah make us more sincere, may He guide us all, and may He forgive us for where we have fallen short throughout these dialogues.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Atheist tag crew checking in
    Blimey! This must be the fourth or fifth time I've ever been tagged. Things are getting beyond a joke! Is there a Tagging Preference Service we can use so that we can avoid it? Before you know it we'll be plagued by people tagging us into PPI claims threads.

    Shia Islam, eh? I'd rather have been tagged into an Ahmadiyya Islam thread: that's a much nicer version of Islam - more friendly altogether.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Atheist tag crew checking in
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Atheist tag crew checking in
    You forgot QE2! Seriously, I had no idea that the TSR atheists so often tag each other here. I've never seen it before. Huh. I'm sure though that the member who said we do will be able to provide some evidence. I'd hate people to think he was just making things up.

    Ask any question about Shia Islam...hmmmm. I suppose really my question wold be how anyone can think that Islam is a perfect divine religion when it's caused so much sectarianism, hatred, bigotry, prejudice, hostility, rudeness and division - as we've had ample evidence of right here on TSR in the last few days.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    I understand; recently (within the last couple of weeks) there has just been more points of contention, I guess, therefore more posts and counter-posts, starting with that thread about groups in Syria, then here, then our disagreement about the ISOC, then this more recent thread about what happened to that boy in Syria the other day etc, and obviously it all piles up...

    A brief mention: I do not mean to make this appear personal (my apologies that perhaps it has if I have followed you into another thread for example), rather mainly I am arguing against what I disagree with, and where necessary asking questions to further my understanding (like in this thread).

    I first ask for this for myself and then everyone else: may Allah make us more sincere, may He guide us all, and may He forgive us for where we have fallen short throughout these dialogues.
    Ameen.
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    Tawheed brother no one told me to come on this thread I just did myself with my own will.
 
 
 
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Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

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