TSR Med Students' Society Part VI

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    (Original post by Helenia)
    About the advisability of applying to only BMAT unis.
    Haha has a sneaky look at what they were going on about via my mums account and it sounds ridiculous. 4 BMAT choices... they are setting themselves up for 4 rejections if they have a bad day. Wish people werent so stuborn and would listen to the advice of us med students and doctors more. But as always mothers know best haha
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    (Original post by Natalierm2707)
    Haha has a sneaky look at what they were going on about via my mums account and it sounds ridiculous. 4 BMAT choices... they are setting themselves up for 4 rejections if they have a bad day. Wish people werent so stuborn and would listen to the advice of us med students and doctors more. But as always mothers know best haha
    It worked for her DS (though I'm not entirely sure that it was possible to apply to 4 BMAT unis 5 years ago? Didn't BSMS and Leeds only start using it much more recently) so obviously it's fiiiine.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    It worked for her DS (though I'm not entirely sure that it was possible to apply to 4 BMAT unis 5 years ago? Didn't BSMS and Leeds only start using it much more recently) so obviously it's fiiiine.
    leeds, BSMS and lancaster only started using the BMAT recently so that leaves ICL, UCL, cambridge and oxford, considering you cannot apply to both oxford and cambridge 5 years ago this would not have been possible... someones either confused or fibbing.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    Oh God, I'm having an argument on Mumsnet about TSR and medical admissions. Very weird having two strands of my internet life intermingling like this. :facepalm:
    OMG. Not sure I can handle that intermingling! :ninjagirl: Although I mostly lurk on MN (& TSR!) these days... It's now all about the closed/secret GP Facebook postnatal groups!
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    It worked for her DS (though I'm not entirely sure that it was possible to apply to 4 BMAT unis 5 years ago? Didn't BSMS and Leeds only start using it much more recently) so obviously it's fiiiine.
    Love that she is able to judge that her son has 'excellent aptitude to be a doctor'. Who needs tests and interviews? :rofl3:
    #4

    Just wanted opinions/advice on an odd situation from placement.

    A senior doctor was reviewing a patient on take, meeting them for the first time, with a junior doctor, patient's spouse and other students in the patient's side room. Senior did a history/exam and then recommended a treatment. Patient asks "is there any other option?" senior replies "Yes, you can pray. Do you have faith? Can I pray for you?" Patient agrees that the senior can, presumably thinking they'd add it to their list of people to pray for in whatever that senior's normal religious routine is.

    The senior then lays their hands on the patients shoulders, bows their head, and as if they were the pope starts whispering thinks like "heavenly father, please take away this patient's [name of illness], amen".I thought that was a bit odd and felt very uncomfortable.

    We later see another patient, and similar situation "heavenly father please take this patient's cancer away". Patient is discharged, no rx needed, but the senior says quite seriously "but you must go home and read the gospel" "it's important that you accept Jesus and the father into your heart" even though the patient was complaining they were really tired and wanted to go to bed as soon as they got in.I'm hesitant to report it because this senior was a lovely teacher, but that's not on is it?
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Just wanted opinions/advice on an odd situation from placement.

    A senior doctor was reviewing a patient on take, meeting them for the first time, with a junior doctor, patient's spouse and other students in the patient's side room. Senior did a history/exam and then recommended a treatment. Patient asks "is there any other option?" senior replies "Yes, you can pray. Do you have faith? Can I pray for you?" Patient agrees that the senior can, presumably thinking they'd add it to their list of people to pray for in whatever that senior's normal religious routine is.

    The senior then lays their hands on the patients shoulders, bows their head, and as if they were the pope starts whispering thinks like "heavenly father, please take away this patient's [name of illness], amen".I thought that was a bit odd and felt very uncomfortable.

    We later see another patient, and similar situation "heavenly father please take this patient's cancer away". Patient is discharged, no rx needed, but the senior says quite seriously "but you must go home and read the gospel" "it's important that you accept Jesus and the father into your heart" even though the patient was complaining they were really tired and wanted to go to bed as soon as they got in.I'm hesitant to report it because this senior was a lovely teacher, but that's not on is it?
    I'm pretty sure a nurse got struck off/disciplined for doing something very similar albeit to a collegue.

    I'd be very concerned if my doctor tried to pray my cancer away. Or even just brought up religion in this manner during a consultation. If they did it so frequently with you, its clearly not a new thing.

    Is there someone senior you can chat with about it?
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    Doctors are supposed to remain religiously neutral, that is incredibly uncomfortable and I'd definitely raise that with another colleague.
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    Did the patient or family object to this interaction?

    Asking as a non believer/religious/spiritual etc.

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    #4

    (Original post by Newtothis83)
    Did the patient or family object to this interaction?
    The first patient seemed better off for it and the family told the doctor about their own faith. The second patient looked a bit perturbed by being prescribed a holy book but didn't seem uncomfortable in the blessing. I guess the doctor would never have done that with non-believers, but it would have been polite to check with the other people in the room.

    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I'm pretty sure a nurse got struck off/disciplined for doing something very similar albeit to a collegue.
    This worries me, I don't want this doctor struck off or in any trouble, but they should stop this really.

    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Doctors are supposed to remain religiously neutral, that is incredibly uncomfortable and I'd definitely raise that with another colleague.
    (Original post by ForestCat)
    Is there someone senior you can chat with about it?
    I'm going to chat it through with another doctor at the same trust.
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    Being an atheist, but setting aside all of my subjective opinions about the validity of faith and religion, I still think it's really inappropriate and a tabloid story waiting to happen. I think you should definitely report it to someone for further investigation and rapid intervention. Last thing we need in the current climate is more bad press for doctors and the NHS. Not to mention the poor patients, who shouldn't have a stranger's beliefs (physically!) inflicted on them.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    The first patient seemed better off for it and the family told the doctor about their own faith. The second patient looked a bit perturbed by being prescribed a holy book but didn't seem uncomfortable in the blessing. I guess the doctor would never have done that with non-believers, but it would have been polite to check with the other people in the room.


    This worries me, I don't want this doctor struck off or in any trouble, but they should stop this really.




    I'm going to chat it through with another doctor at the same trust.
    Then they need to be spoken to before they do this to the wrong person, who really takes offence and reports them to the hospital/GMC
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    Talk to the junior doctor who was there and witnessed everything.
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    I'd take extreme offence to that, he needs to be told that he could be reported for that. If I can't count on my consultant being the realistic, scientific individual that I turn to with my health, then who do I turn to? There's enough religious nutters out there, no need to encounter that in a hospital.
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    One of my consultants was a street preacher on the weekends, and gave me a book about Jesus as a thank you when I finished the rotation, but never mentioned religion to his patients. The level of pushing that you describe is totally inappropriate.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Just wanted opinions/advice on an odd situation from placement.

    A senior doctor was reviewing a patient on take, meeting them for the first time, with a junior doctor, patient's spouse and other students in the patient's side room. Senior did a history/exam and then recommended a treatment. Patient asks "is there any other option?" senior replies "Yes, you can pray. Do you have faith? Can I pray for you?" Patient agrees that the senior can, presumably thinking they'd add it to their list of people to pray for in whatever that senior's normal religious routine is.

    The senior then lays their hands on the patients shoulders, bows their head, and as if they were the pope starts whispering thinks like "heavenly father, please take away this patient's [name of illness], amen".I thought that was a bit odd and felt very uncomfortable.

    We later see another patient, and similar situation "heavenly father please take this patient's cancer away". Patient is discharged, no rx needed, but the senior says quite seriously "but you must go home and read the gospel" "it's important that you accept Jesus and the father into your heart" even though the patient was complaining they were really tired and wanted to go to bed as soon as they got in.I'm hesitant to report it because this senior was a lovely teacher, but that's not on is it?
    Ultimately, this is down to what the patient wants. There are many patients who would appreciate a doctor praying for them or with them, and that is fine and appropriate. It seems like that is what happened in the first instance.

    In the second instance, it seems like the doctor was forcing their own religious beliefs on the patient. That really is not OK, and I would expect the patient to say something to somebody.

    If I were in your position, I'd wait for the NHS complaints system to work. Of course, not all patients will take advantage of complaining about a doctor, but I think there's a risk you could be superimposing your feelings on what you think the patient *should* be feeling, and getting a doctor in trouble because of it. Unless, of course, you feel there is a genuine risk to patient safety, in which case you really need to act right away.
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    Once as an FY1 I was witness to a breaking bad news consultation in which a lady who came in with a slight cough was basically told she had terminal lung cancer. She happened to mention something about faith which opened up a really beautiful conversation with the consultant and resulted in him offering to pray for her next time he was praying, it felt like a really special moment, but he did not impose his own views or practices on the patient but let her guide him. She was talking about how she had the church community to support her and her faith to keep her going, they had talk about spirituality and faith in general and then before the consultation ended he offered to pray for her, as he was closing up.

    However religion and faith can be highly personal things and I think generally should not come into your professional life and relationship and you have to be really careful not to let religion cloud your judgement, and avoid imposing your views on others. As someone in a position of influence you have to be aware of how your actions and beliefs may influence others too. I think you have to be really really careful if you introduce it into consultations, to protect yourself and to protect your patient.
    #4

    (Original post by Helenia)
    One of my consultants was a street preacher on the weekends, and gave me a book about Jesus as a thank you when I finished the rotation, but never mentioned religion to his patients. The level of pushing that you describe is totally inappropriate.
    While that's not really okay, I think it's one of those things you can write off as a nice gesture, that they really wanted well for you and put it on your shelf and wish it were a cake.

    The more I reflect on it the more I think if I were a cancer patient and I'm come to a person of science to try and cure me, with science and medicines, I'd lose all trust in someone that thought they could cure me with hands on my shoulders and a plea to their imaginary friend.

    I really want to see it as the doctor being super-empathetic, but I can't help wondering if a vulnerable person should really be cornered like that.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    One of my consultants was a street preacher on the weekends, and gave me a book about Jesus as a thank you when I finished the rotation, but never mentioned religion to his patients. The level of pushing that you describe is totally inappropriate.
    I never got the book!

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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    While that's not really okay, I think it's one of those things you can write off as a nice gesture, that they really wanted well for you and put it on your shelf and wish it were a cake.

    The more I reflect on it the more I think if I were a cancer patient and I'm come to a person of science to try and cure me, with science and medicines, I'd lose all trust in someone that thought they could cure me with hands on my shoulders and a plea to their imaginary friend.

    I really want to see it as the doctor being super-empathetic, but I can't help wondering if a vulnerable person should really be cornered like that.
    Completely agree - I thought it was a very nice gesture from him actually, as nobody else has ever given me an end-of-rotation present! The point was that despite him obviously being deeply religious, he never mentioned it to patients. I don't think there's any place for "faith healing" within medicine, though I do appreciate that religious pastoral care can be very helpful for some patients, that's for the chaplaincy not the doctors.
 
 
 
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