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    (Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
    We have a more progressive government.
    Who is we?
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Qatar- "Although there were problems in some areas, the Government's overall human rights records improved in some areas during the year. The country has taken significant steps toward democratic governance; however, citizens did not have the right to peacefully change their government. The Government severely limited the rights of assembly and association. The Government restricted freedom of religion, although it continued to take some steps to ease restrictions on the practice of non-Muslim religions. The law and social customs restricted women's rights. The Government severely restricted workers' rights. At times, some domestic servants were mistreated and abused. Noncitizens, who make up more than 75 percent of local residents, faced discrimination in the workplace. The country also was a destination for trafficked persons."
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27936.htm

    The other two I will not contest, although Brunei only has a population 350,000 people (compared to Iraq's population of 28 million).
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...7256&year=2007

    Qatar got a 5.5. Iraq under Hussein was a 7:

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...2&country=1415

    That means that Iraq was a totalitarian state (the rankings are from 1 to 7, with the former being a democracy, and the latter being a totalitarian state). I think you'll find very few Arab states with a 7 rating.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...7256&year=2007

    Qatar got a 5.5. Iraq under Hussein was a 7:

    http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...2&country=1415

    That means that Iraq was a totalitarian state (the rankings are from 1 to 7, with the former being a democracy, and the latter being a totalitarian state). I think you'll find very few Arab states with a 7 rating.
    I am not talking about democracy and I never once stated that Iraq was a democracy. As you know, Iraq was progressive as it pertained to women's rights, freedom of religion, and minority rights. It was also secular, which was a far cry from most of its neighbors and their policies regarding women and minorities.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    There are always UAE, Qatar, and Brunei.
    Isn't that S.E. Asia rather than M.E?
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    (Original post by Soc)
    Isn't that S.E. Asia rather than M.E?
    Whoops, that was meant to be Bahrain.
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Oh and please explain to me how I am being dishonest...
    You are relativising the deaths of civilians in one war, and failing to do the same in regards to another out of idealogical want. Intellectual dishonesty.
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    If he was such a tyrant than your task of finding a more progressive government should be rather simple...
    Israel, Egypt, Turkey.
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    (Original post by tehjonny)
    Israel, Egypt, Turkey.
    Are you going to make your case for these nations???

    Its funny you mention those three nations. For starters Israel hardly has a good record when it comes to tolerance for minority rights. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    Secondly, Turkey's membership into the EU is being held up in large part due to its inability to follow the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

    Egypt on the other hand..
    "In Egypt, a UN report by Fatma Khafagy of the Cairo-based Association of Legal Aid for Women was produced in 2005. It states that in 1995, out of a total of 819 slayings, 52 of these were honor killings. In 2003, a report by a women's rights group claimed that 42% of domestic violence cases involved "honor crimes". Article 17 of Egypt's Penal Code allows judges to decrease sentences in murder cases if they decide that the murder's condition merits it. As a result, a sentence can be as little as six months' duration. In Article 277 of the Penal Code, a man can commit adultery only within his marital home. A woman is adulterous within or outside of the home, and need not be caught "in the act" for a husband to use the defense of inflamed emotions. "

    UN Report on Honour Killings in Egypt
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    (Original post by tehjonny)
    You are relativising the deaths of civilians in one war, and failing to do the same in regards to another out of idealogical want. Intellectual dishonesty.
    Again, how am I being dishonest?
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Are you going to make your case for these nations???

    Its funny you mention those three nations. For starters Israel hardly has a good record when it comes to tolerance for minority rights. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
    Still better compared to its Arab neighbhours.

    Secondly, Turkey's membership into the EU is being held up in large part due to its inability to follow the Charter of Fundamental Rights.
    .
    And Iraq's human rights record was spotless?! :rolleyes:

    Egypt on the other hand..
    "In Egypt, a UN report by Fatma Khafagy of the Cairo-based Association of Legal Aid for Women was produced in 2005. It states that in 1995, out of a total of 819 slayings, 52 of these were honor killings. In 2003, a report by a women's rights group claimed that 42% of domestic violence cases involved "honor crimes". Article 17 of Egypt's Penal Code allows judges to decrease sentences in murder cases if they decide that the murder's condition merits it. As a result, a sentence can be as little as six months' duration. In Article 277 of the Penal Code, a man can commit adultery only within his marital home. A woman is adulterous within or outside of the home, and need not be caught "in the act" for a husband to use the defense of inflamed emotions. "

    UN Report on Honour Killings in Egypt
    Need I remind you that the most recent honour killing in the UK was that of a Kurdish girl of Iraqi origin?
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    (Original post by Soc)
    Still better compared to its Arab neighbhours.
    Perhaps you could illustrate this rather than assuming I would simply take your word for it.
    Need I remind you that the most recent honour killing in the UK was that of a Kurdish girl of Iraqi origin?
    What does a girl's murder in the UK have to do with Iraq or Saddam Hussein? While George W is the master of incomplete sentences, I expect more meat from a debater of the year.

    Is it me or have the D&D forums totally gone down hill in the past couple of years? Less than half the posts have more than twenty or so words...
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Perhaps you could illustrate this rather than assuming I would simply take your word for it...
    Well if you really don't believe me do a google search. I'm hardly a fan of Israel (and most regulars in D&D are a testament to that) but its hard to deny that in line with it being with the only democracy in the Middle East it is also the most progressive nation compared to the rest of the Arab world.

    What I was suggesting by highlighting the Kurdish case was that you can't point out Egypt as being bad because there are honour killings going on there, when similar occurances happen in Iraq and by Iraqis elsewhere as well.

    I don't have the will to type out an essay on here, mainly because I do that all through the year for my course, and secondly because I'm hardly going to get much credit for it anyway, given that most people won't read a post which is too long.
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    Kondar, you're not seriously suggesting that Israel and Turkey had worse human rights records than Iraq under Hussein, are you?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Kondar, you're not seriously suggesting that Israel and Turkey had worse human rights records than Iraq under Hussein, are you?
    It depends on if you include the Iran Iraq war, but on a whole, no I am not. Israel and Turkey are both relatively progressive nations and are both generally aligned with the west. While I think they still have a long way to go, they are nowhere as malicious as others in the area.
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    (Original post by Soc)
    I don't have the will to type out an essay on here, mainly because I do that all through the year for my course, and secondly because I'm hardly going to get much credit for it anyway, given that most people won't read a post which is too long.
    Fair enough..
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Again, how am I being dishonest?

    Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. If a person is aware of the evidence and the conclusion it portends, yet holds a contradictory view, it is intellectual dishonesty.


    Does this answer your question? All evidence points towards Iraq under Saddam being a repressive, vicious totalitarian state. Yet you keep painting it as 'progressive' to appeal to your own idealogical wants.

    You are railing against the deaths caused in one war, whilst relativising those caused in another, in order to support your own agenda. Not once have you just admitted the hypocrisy and illogic of this.
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    and minority rights.
    Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of minorities. How the hell is that progressive? What rights did they have?! They were ruled by a bloodthirsty tyrant who ruthlessly stamped out any protest or rebellion and who executed and tortured his way through swathes of the population.
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    For starters Israel hardly has a good record when it comes to tolerance for minority rights.
    They can vote, form political parties, have freedom of speech, assembly, religion, etc. They're also not under a tyrant who gasses, tortures and executes for no reason at all and with absolutely no process. It's not even on the same scale.
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    (Original post by tehjonny)

    Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. If a person is aware of the evidence and the conclusion it portends, yet holds a contradictory view, it is intellectual dishonesty.


    Does this answer your question? All evidence points towards Iraq under Saddam being a repressive, vicious totalitarian state. Yet you keep painting it as 'progressive' to appeal to your own idealogical wants.

    You are railing against the deaths caused in one war, whilst relativising those caused in another, in order to support your own agenda. Not once have you just admitted the hypocrisy and illogic of this.
    For the last time, you cannot give something a relative and subjective tag by comparing it to itself. If you want to convince me that Iraq was not progressive compared to its middle eastern neighbors then you need to include its neighbors in your assessment....

    I don't want to get personal here, but if you actually studied the Middle East or read some books (entire books just on the recent history of the ME) then you would know that among scholars it is widely accepted that Iraq was progressive up until the invasion. It's womens rights were unheard of among another neighboring nations. I challenge anyone to find an Islamic nation in the ME with better women's rights. You wont find one.
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    Can you find us a neighbouring country that killed and tortured quite as many of its own people and started quite so many unprovoked, aggressive wars?
 
 
 
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