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Muslim women are the "least successful group in society" report finds Watch

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    The very headline is dishonest. The study shows that women have the lowest employment rate, and that most unemployed Muslim women are not looking for work. It shows that Muslim women are most likely to be housewives, not that they are least successful. In 1950 most British women were "unsuccessful" by that measure. On the other hand, at that time we had a naturally growing population.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    But that's the thing, when I hear religion I think of the religious text only. Whether that be the Torah, the bible or the Quran. That is the essence of the religion. Anything else is all hearsay and added on by exploitists. If people take a step back and take some time to seperate the web of culture and religion it would solve a lot of misunderstanding. For example take the culture in Saudia Arabia: the Quran doesn't say women can't take part in sports or drive. It is the authorities there that use religion as the excuse to impose their misogyny.
    The type of people that want to impose social control will use anything to gain it, it just so happens that in some places religion is available, people avidly follow it so it makes it easier for them to take advantage of it and use the name 'religion' to impose their views. When in reality the religious books doesn't tell them to do any of this.
    That is why I personally call it an ideology and not a religion.

    And the fact is, that in most countries, dare I say all but I might be wrong then, where this ideology is the leading authority on morals and values, in those countries the culture is one that directly opposes the liberal freedoms our ancestors, and we still do today, have achieved and strive for.

    Sure, there are those mistreating minorities based on sexual preferences here, too, but overall we condemn that. Our laws condemn that. We should be proud that half a century ago being gay was a crime and now they can marry. We evolved morally to let that happen. Therefore we should be vehemently against cultures and ideologies that in some extremes even stone gays. That is just one example, nothing to do with women.

    I don't care about Islam per se as a "religion". The problem is the societal control it allows people (you have to "submit" to be a Muslim, that means it is so much easier for people in power to come and oppress you, for men to oppress women). That makes it a much more dangerous ideology that Judaism or Christianity.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The very headline is dishonest. The study shows that women have the lowest employment rate, and that most unemployed Muslim women are not looking for work. It shows that Muslim women are most likely to be housewives, not that they are least successful. In 1950 most British women were "unsuccessful" by that measure. On the other hand, at that time we had a naturally growing population.
    But that's the whole point! Yes! They were unsuccessful. The 1950s was a much more sexist, patriarchal society than now. We have progressed. Islam has not. And it is very good at resisting morals evolving. That is the problem. It is very good at not integrating into existing societies.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    But that's the whole point! Yes! They were unsuccessful. The 1950s was a much more sexist, patriarchal society than now. We have progressed. Islam has not. And it is very good at resisting morals evolving. That is the problem. It is very good at not integrating into existing societies.
    You are saying that they are unsuccessful because they choose values that (in your opinion) are wrong. The headline is implying they share your values, and are failing to live up to them. This is dishonest.

    Given differential birthrate, the future is going to look like Islam, not the self-euthanising culture of the West.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    I can't tell you how many were businesswomen during that time as I wasn't there and I can't find any record from during that time with that sort of information. However, the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and Mohammad opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights.
    really? did he elevate any women to positions of power? and did any women elevate to position of caliph ( highest islamically ordained position) in the history of islam? Note that prior to advent of islam, women held some of the highest positions of goverment such as profectors or ruling queens.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    You are saying that they are unsuccessful because they choose values that (in your opinion) are wrong. The headline is implying they share your values, and are failing to live up to them. This is dishonest.

    Given differential birthrate, the future is going to look like Islam, not the self-euthanising culture of the West.
    No, by our measure (i.e. our values) they are unsuccessful. I am saying their values are contrasting to what we believe in. Liberty and freedom and equal opportunity regardless of gender. Women saying they are happy and it's what they want because from birth that's what their culture expects, does not make the free.

    That someone in the West would defend their position is sad. Very sad.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    No, by our measure (i.e. our values) they are unsuccessful. I am saying their values are contrasting to what we believe in. Liberty and freedom and equal opportunity regardless of gender. Women saying they are happy and it's what they want because from birth that's what their culture expects, does not make the free.

    That someone in the West would defend their position is sad. Very sad.
    This is a dishonest, propagandist definition of success. It is like saying that Nazi Germany's invasion of France was not successful because, in our value system, Nazi Germany taking over France is a bad thing. That is a dishonest presentation of the facts even though I do not disagree that Nazi Germany taking over France is a bad thing.

    Here specifically, the purpose of the report is to slander Britain. It is arguing that Muslim women are economically inactive because of evil mind rays emitted by white atheist or Christian men. In fact they are economically inactive mostly out of choice or because of social pressure from their own immigrant communities.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    I can't tell you how many were businesswomen during that time as I wasn't there and I can't find any record from during that time with that sort of information. However, the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and Mohammad opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights.
    Spoken like a true brainwashed person.

    History tells a different story. Open your eyes.
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    Any culture that produces a total fertility rate of less than 2.1 is indefensible by definition, as it is on the path to suicide. It is as much a failure as a culture that cannot produce food.
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    (Original post by Saba XD)
    Oh, so if someone wants to be a doctor, would you bring up operation theater? Sounds weird but whatever tickles your pickles.
    *sighs*.
    You were making a statement based on anecdotal evidence, saying that because you were a Muslim who isn't subdued and is going to be a lawyer and thus successful, then the results of the research is bogus.
    I was trying to show you that anecdotal evidence, like the one you gave, are not solid enough to buttress an argument, using something relevant to you, i.e. courts as you plan to be a lawyer. Furthermore as a lawyer you should understand the importance and the weight of evidence required to invalidate a whole piece of research, which I tried to point out to you.

    If you were going to be a scientist, and had you mentioned that, I would have instead said something along the lines of "Try publishing a paper with anecdotal evidence". Had you mentioned you wanted to be a doctor, I would have said something like "Try proposing a new drug as a cure for whatever on the sole basis that it worked for your uncle in the past", again anecdotal evidence are rubbish. Get my point?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Spoken like a true brainwashed person.

    History tells a different story. Open your eyes.
    He actually did, by the standards of their day. Women were more or less treated like women in Game of Thrones brothels were. He gave them a bit more dignity and covered them up. By the standards of our day, which are much more enlightened and egalitarian, he's a sexist misogynist man, but he did improve things for Arabian women of the time.
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    (Original post by Saba XD)
    It is not flawed. The way you made your point was flawed. I know the study is bogus because I am not the only person to be in a good field. In my University, there are more muslim girls than guys who are aspiring to be doctors, lawyers and engineers. I go by what I observe not by some study over the internet.
    I know a lot of white people who study physics (by virtue of my education), does that mean that all white people are physicists?
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    He actually did, by the standards of their day. Women were more or less treated like women in Game of Thrones brothels were. He gave them a bit more dignity and covered them up. By the standards of our day, which are much more enlightened and egalitarian, he's a sexist misogynist man, but he did improve things for Arabian women of the time.
    I see. What a great man.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I see. What a great man.
    I am not saying that, I am only pointing out you were technically wrong. You see, criticism of religion has to be done right otherwise you'll be looked at as a bigot.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    I see. What a great man.
    Well great for that time yes in what he did to improve the state of women.
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    People are acting like they know for sure the main issue is Islamic influence rather than discrimination. There's loads more other factors such as many Muslims are migrants to begin with with zero qualification.

    I don't see any evidence to give rise to any justification.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    I am not saying that, I am only pointing out you were technically wrong. You see, criticism of religion has to be done right otherwise you'll be looked at as a bigot.
    No I know you aren't saying that, it was more sarcastic.
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    (Original post by Pinkberry_y)
    Well great for that time yes in what he did to improve the state of women.
    He still raped little girls. But you want to call him great.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    He still raped little girls. But you want to call him great.
    Give me the proof he raped girls. Actual quotes from the Quran please, no hearsay will be accepted.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    He actually did, by the standards of their day. Women were more or less treated like women in Game of Thrones brothels were. He gave them a bit more dignity and covered them up. By the standards of our day, which are much more enlightened and egalitarian, he's a sexist misogynist man, but he did improve things for Arabian women of the time.
    I don't think you can pretend that Islam is not patriarchal by deliberate intent. Islam was not the first step on a road to the German womens' Olympic volleyball team circa 2016. Islam wanted women to be subject to specific men, so that there would be stable families producing a lot of Muslim children.

    There are downsides of diverting economic activity to the production of children but as I have said before cultures that are below replacement have probably gone too far the other way.

    As for denying women the early 20s no-strings dating free-for-all, it's not obvious that that actually harms women in the long run. Our current dating market mostly benefits very rich and/or attractive men, at the expense of women who can't get commitment and less attractive men who can't get anything.
 
 
 
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