Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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SuperHanss
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#2581
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#2581
(Original post by Tigers)
the Queen is stateless?Come on.The Scots lost their fight for independence,let's not consider the Royals' moves for their roles.If Scots are still there they deserve an independent State without an English Queen and English MPs or Scottish pounds not accepted by a lot of English or Scottish degrees rated less than English degrees.
She's not stateless but she's not bound to one country, she and all of her successors will be so to 16. In the UK and Commonwealth countries we're not citizens of our nation, we're just subjects of it and of the monarch. The Queen is the embodiment of the countries she is the head of: she isn't a citizen of either England or Scotland or anywhere else because officially she is those places.

Besides, Alex Salmond and the SNP have at no point proposed Scotland should get rid of the monarchy if they get independence.
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Tigers
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#2582
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#2582
(Original post by SuperHanss)
She's not stateless but she's not bound to one country, she and all of her successors will be so to 16. In the UK and Commonwealth countries we're not citizens of our nation, we're just subjects of it and of the monarch. The Queen is the embodiment of the countries she is the head of: she isn't a citizen of either England or Scotland or anywhere else because officially she is those places.

Besides, Alex Salmond and the SNP have at no point proposed Scotland should get rid of the monarchy if they get independence.
this is what she likes to say but she is clearly English.The EU promoters say the same about Europe,they claim joining the united states of Europe wouldn't make you lose your nationality because you would be a part of a new union.Luckily people don't believe them
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Spaz Man
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#2583
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#2583
The current framing of the debate as a economic and short-term political one is bizarre to me. Don't voters understand the long-term constitutional implications of this vote?
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MatureStudent36
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#2584
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#2584
(Original post by Spaz Man)
The current framing of the debate as a economic and short-term political one is bizarre to me. Don't voters understand the long-term constitutional implications of this vote?
Yes we do. And that's why the SNP hasn't shifted support on the issue for thirty years.
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Spaz Man
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#2585
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#2585
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Yes we do. And that's why the SNP hasn't shifted support on the issue for thirty years.
That does seem to be a good explanation of how the polls are very static. I just hope voters don't get caught up in short-term arguments either way.
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MatureStudent36
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#2586
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#2586
(Original post by Spaz Man)
That does seem to be a good explanation of how the polls are very static. I just hope voters don't get caught up in short-term arguments either way.

We won't. The economic arguments are all important to listen to and they're good to understand just how poorly they've planned the future out, but there's an emotional bond. Many if us have families that we don't want to see split up. Support for the SNP has gone up recently but that's because they seem to have gathered all the extreme left wingers to their cause who believe that can create a socialist utopian society without really understanding the ways of the world. They've even had to start making up stuff like labour for independance. A break away labour grouping that's made up if SnP members pretending to be labour supporters.
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Psyk
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#2587
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#2587
(Original post by SuperHanss)
In the UK and Commonwealth countries we're not citizens of our nation, we're just subjects of it and of the monarch.
That's not true any more. For the last 30 years the term British Citizen is used (in passports for example). Even before that, people were citizens of the UK in addition to being British Subjects.
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Blue Meltwater
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#2588
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#2588
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Many if us have families that we don't want to see split up.
I'm sure families wouldn't be split up. I have most of my family in England too, but it's not as if some Berlin-style wall would go up over the border. If there were to be passport and immigration checks to get in and out of Scotland, it would be the only border in Europe to have such stringent measures. We'd probably see a similar open border agreement as we currently have with Ireland.
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Good bloke
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#2589
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#2589
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
it would be the only border in Europe to have such stringent measures.
You haven't heard of Gibraltar, then?

We'd probably see a similar open border agreement as we currently have with Ireland
I'm sure you are right.
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Blue Meltwater
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#2590
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#2590
(Original post by Good bloke)
You haven't heard of Gibraltar, then?
Okay, the only border without a dispute occurring over it.
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Tigers
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#2591
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#2591
Scottish pounds not accepted by a lot of English.Scottish degrees rated less than English degrees.This couldn't happen in a free Scotland
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FinalMH
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#2592
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#2592
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
I'm sure families wouldn't be split up. I have most of my family in England too, but it's not as if some Berlin-style wall would go up over the border. If there were to be passport and immigration checks to get in and out of Scotland, it would be the only border in Europe to have such stringent measures. We'd probably see a similar open border agreement as we currently have with Ireland.
Obviously the open border agreement will be dependent on the immigration policy of both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I am from Jersey (Channel Island) whilst still part of the Common Travel Area you're still required to have photo identification.

:confused: If I am not mistaken the current Scottish Government want a different immigration policy from the rest of the UK .
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FinalMH
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#2593
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#2593
(Original post by Tigers)
if someone doesn't agree with you he's a troll.Democracy is a bit different
Democracy is the freedom to elect our own dictators. lol
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Snagprophet
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#2594
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#2594
(Original post by Tigers)
Scottish pounds not accepted by a lot of English.Scottish degrees rated less than English degrees.This couldn't happen in a free Scotland
I've mostly only had problems with foreigners (non-Britons) in England when dealing with the notes from Scottish based banks (even though I believe there's no reason for so many different sets from different banks to be circulating an economy of 5 million people within a country of 63 million. Same with Northern Ireland).
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Blue Meltwater
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#2595
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#2595
(Original post by FinalMH)
Obviously the open border agreement will be dependent on the immigration policy of both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I am from Jersey (Channel Island) whilst still part of the Common Travel Area you're still required to have photo identification.

:confused: If I am not mistaken the current Scottish Government want a different immigration policy from the rest of the UK .
Would you say there are difficulties in traveling to and from the rest of the country, or that apart from the photo ID required it's fairly simple?

I think Scotland's demographic needs have pushed the Scottish government into quite a pro-immigration stance. Actually, that's a good point - would the UK and an independent Scotland having different immigration policies pose a problem for border agreements? Michael Moore here suggests it would, but I'd prefer to hear it from an independent source.
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MatureStudent36
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#2596
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#2596
(Original post by Snagprophet)
I've mostly only had problems with foreigners (non-Britons) in England when dealing with the notes from Scottish based banks (even though I believe there's no reason for so many different sets from different banks to be circulating an economy of 5 million people within a country of 63 million. Same with Northern Ireland).

Agreed. I've seen Northern Irish notes rejected in Edinburgh. The simple fact is that people get reluctant to take money that they're unsure what they're looking at. Is it fake or isn't it. They'll never know.
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Quady
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#2597
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#2597
(Original post by Snagprophet)
I've mostly only had problems with foreigners (non-Britons) in England when dealing with the notes from Scottish based banks (even though I believe there's no reason for so many different sets from different banks to be circulating an economy of 5 million people within a country of 63 million. Same with Northern Ireland).
Haven't used a £100 note have you? :P they are mental special in England.
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Quady
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#2598
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#2598
(Original post by Tigers)
Scottish pounds not accepted by a lot of English.Scottish degrees rated less than English degrees.This couldn't happen in a free Scotland
How would the situation change?

Surely no Scottish notes would be accepted and Scottish degrees would be formally different in the same way a degree from South Africa is.
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Psyk
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#2599
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#2599
(Original post by Tigers)
Scottish pounds not accepted by a lot of English.Scottish degrees rated less than English degrees.This couldn't happen in a free Scotland
I find the thing about degrees quite baffling. Relative to the populations, Scotland has more highly regarded universities than England. So I don't quite get the reasoning behind saying Scottish degrees are rated less than English ones.

(Original post by FinalMH)
Obviously the open border agreement will be dependent on the immigration policy of both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I am from Jersey (Channel Island) whilst still part of the Common Travel Area you're still required to have photo identification.
But I'd guess that's more because you have to take a plane or ferry. If there was a land border there would just be roads with no border checks whatsoever. It's pretty much unthinkable that border checks would be put up between England and Scotland in the case of Scottish independence.

As for different immigration policies, that's still possible. Surely plenty of Schengen Zone countries have different immigration policies, yet they still have open borders. Sure it makes it harder to enforce, but each country can still have their own rules about who is allowed to stay there permanently and work there.
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marcusfox
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#2600
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#2600
(Original post by Psyk)
As for different immigration policies, that's still possible. Surely plenty of Schengen Zone countries have different immigration policies, yet they still have open borders. Sure it makes it harder to enforce, but each country can still have their own rules about who is allowed to stay there permanently and work there.
If an independent Scotland joins the EU and as a consequence, is forced to sign up to Schengen, a border control will be wholly necessary...
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