Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
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Tigers
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#2621
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#2621
any real population would vote for its independence.If Scots vote against it means they are a regional group like Texas or Florida who accpet to have a parliament and some powers but don't want full independence because they are not a population
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MatureStudent36
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#2622
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#2622
(Original post by scotland369)
RBS? Sorry, I can't have been clear enough with my point which was that aside from being born in Scotland, the only time Mr. Blair spent in the country was a brief stay in Stepps and later a year or two in an English school in Edinburgh; Alistair was born in London.
An English school in Edinburgh? You mean Fettes? You describe its something alien.
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scotland369
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#2623
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#2623
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
An English school in Edinburgh? You mean Fettes? You describe its something alien.
My sister's boyfriend boards there, will be looking forward/dreading A-Level results next year and from his accent you'd think he was from the home counties (he's actually from Fife). To someone used to the Scottish education system, it is alien :P
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MatureStudent36
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#2624
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#2624
(Original post by scotland369)
My sister's boyfriend boards there, will be looking forward/dreading A-Level results next year and from his accent you'd think he was from the home counties (he's actually from Fife). To someone used to the Scottish education system, it is alien :P
And people wonder if we're still narrow minded in scotland
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scotland369
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#2625
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#2625
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
And people wonder if we're still narrow minded in scotland
So you're saying that if the top public school in England taught Highers instead of A-Levels and "neutralised" the accents of those who attended to standard Scottish, the people of England wouldn't consider it at all alien (your word not mine, by the way)?
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Good bloke
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#2626
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#2626
(Original post by scotland369)
So you're saying that if the top public school in England taught Highers instead of A-Levels and "neutralised" the accents of those who attended to standard Scottish, the people of England wouldn't consider it at all alien (your word not mine, by the way)?
Your argument is ridiculous. Many top English schools teach the curricula of foreign examinations systems. Charterhouse uses the International Baccalaureate, for instance. And the number of people who emerge from a boarding school education with anything other than received pronunciation can be counted on the fingers of one foot. Nobody thinks of them as anything other than traditionally English.
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Psyk
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#2627
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#2627
(Original post by Tigers)
any real population would vote for its independence.If Scots vote against it means they are a regional group like Texas or Florida who accpet to have a parliament and some powers but don't want full independence because they are not a population
You're attributing more meaning to the word 'population' than it actually has. Any group of people in a given area is a 'real' population. They don't need any common identity to count as a population. Do you mean nation?
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MatureStudent36
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#2628
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#2628
(Original post by scotland369)
So you're saying that if the top public school in England taught Highers instead of A-Levels and "neutralised" the accents of those who attended to standard Scottish, the people of England wouldn't consider it at all alien (your word not mine, by the way)?
One of Scotland premier Schools that has been going since 1870 is alien?

Accents have been neutralised for some time in schools be it Scottish, Brummie, Manc, Scouser or Geordie.

You're perceived attack on Scottish culture shows just how narrow minded nationalists are.

Some recent examples of SNP narrow mindedness.

http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/bo...enda-1-3045527
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html
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Boab
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#2629
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#2629
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
As is the Border crossing between two between on area that is a non Schengan signatory and the other that isn't.

Attachment 239369

The word 'scaremongering'seems to continue to be banded around rather liberally. It's not scaremongering to question the SNPs rather flawed assumptions that they've made recently.
I note that you have opted to post a picture of a border contol imposed by Spain at Gibraltar - clever!
Ironic then that the UK government says it is considering legal action against Spain over the imposition of them.

Where are the border checks between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Even at the height of the troubles these did not exist. Opt outs, Schlegen etc is all baloney. You and me both know fine well that border controls would not suddenly appear between Scotland and England - to suggest otherwise is scaremongering nonsense!
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MatureStudent36
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#2630
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#2630
(Original post by Boab)
I note that you have opted to post a picture of a border contol imposed by Spain at Gibraltar - clever!
Ironic then that the UK government says it is considering legal action against Spain over the imposition of them.

Where are the border checks between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Even at the height of the troubles these did not exist. Opt outs, Schlegen etc is all baloney. You and me both know fine well that border controls would not suddenly appear between Scotland and England - to suggest otherwise is scaremongering nonsense!
I've never said border controls could be in place, merely that they could. (providing we get into Europe) I'm more worried about things like the pensions time bomb, the lack of clarity of what currency we'd be using and it's impact on the economy (If we join the EU we have to adopt to Euro), loss of use of the well connected UK embassies to support exports. But one of my main reasons for to wanting it is driving a wedge between me and many members of my family and friends.

The SNP can spout whatever optimistic drivel they like, but the fact is that they haven't addressed the most basic of considerations such as the Economy, Defence and Welfare. What they have talked about is absolute drivel and has been found lacking in all area's. That is naturally a concern form me that they are trying to lead us headlong into the great unknown with the rallying cry of 'don't worry, we can look at that after the event.'
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Boab
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#2631
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#2631
Shall we define scaremongering?

Name:  sun-front-page-may-2007.jpg
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Actually we've done just fine as it turns out.

Trade between Scotland and England is just as important for England as it is Scotland, so the idea of barriers being put in place are nonsensical, and petty scaremongering (there's trhat word again). How about we deal with the more important issues like.....

How would the NHS serve us, what will be done with pensions, what tax initiatives might be taken, what will happen with education, where will we spend less, and where will we spend more? Other such questions, rather than creating issues that are imaginary - making Faslane a British sovreign territory!

I want independence because I support free education, I want the NHS to stay as a National Health Service, not what the UK government are turning it into, I support policies more inclined with the left leaning SNP, Labour and Liberals in Scotland than the right of centre Conservatives and creeping Labour.
I want to spend the money we are going to waste on Trident, HS2, a new London airport etc etc elsewhere, I want money from oil invested into our infrastructure and a future fund, and most of all i trust that the people of Scotland are more than capable of running their own country.

We will always share a huge common interests with England, Wales and Ireland, and independence will not end that, but I am sick and fed up with the policies of Westminster.
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farid
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#2632
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#2632
We are stronger together, weaker apart.


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Boab
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#2633
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#2633
Neither person being a member of the SNP government - one a private citizen and another long retired.
I wonder if I tried real real hard, I could dig up anything narrow minded from anyone in favour of the union?!!
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Boab
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#2634
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#2634
(Original post by farid)
We are stronger together, weaker apart.


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Nice catchphrase - any proof to that? Does that work with everything?
The UK in Europe is stronger together, weaker apart? Should we dissolve Westminster now and go to Brussels?
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Snagprophet
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#2635
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#2635
I love how my mum, who's moved back to Scotland, very rarely sees anyone with anything nice to say about Salmond and the SNP.

I do hope that there'll be more attendance at the referendum vote, especially from the true Brits to avoid what we saw in 2011, which was the SNP winning many seats from 40% of the turnout. That means that everyone who wanted independence turned up and the true Brits didn't stop them.

It is understandable though, the SNP have an advantage of running a change campaign during an economic slump so the apparent options to many are 'either it stays the same or we do something different and it might make it better'.
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Boab
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#2636
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#2636
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I've never said border controls could be in place, merely that they could. (providing we get into Europe) I'm more worried about things like the pensions time bomb, the lack of clarity of what currency we'd be using and it's impact on the economy (If we join the EU we have to adopt to Euro), loss of use of the well connected UK embassies to support exports. But one of my main reasons for to wanting it is driving a wedge between me and many members of my family and friends.

The SNP can spout whatever optimistic drivel they like, but the fact is that they haven't addressed the most basic of considerations such as the Economy, Defence and Welfare. What they have talked about is absolute drivel and has been found lacking in all area's. That is naturally a concern form me that they are trying to lead us headlong into the great unknown with the rallying cry of 'don't worry, we can look at that after the event.'
Ah yes, they could, of course they could. We could do a lot of things, but won't, so why are people talking of this as something that is likely to happen, arguing about it - the SNP aren't perfect, no way, but they can't answer it definitively, because there is no answer right now. They can say what is common sense - but that isn't good enough for some.

Drive a wedge? Don't know how your family works. Mine? Half are English, half are Scottish, some Scots live in England, and some of the English work in Scotland - will independence drive a wedge? Of course not. Why would it?

I'm sure they will, theres plenty of time to go yet, and this is one of the reasons I think it will be a lot closer call than many think. Its pretty hard to convince everybody of everything in one go, and no doubt, there will be uncertainties no matter what, but i'm optimistic about them personally.
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Boab
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#2637
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#2637
(Original post by Snagprophet)
I love how my mum, who's moved back to Scotland, very rarely sees anyone with anything nice to say about Salmond and the SNP.

Salmond is one of the most popular leaders in the UK there has been - lots of people hate him, but then, of course they do. If you hate his ideas, you're going to hate him, because he is good at what he does.
I know lots and lots of people who don't vote SNP, but they aren't all that negative - most agree that the SNP have done a pretty good job in government.


I do hope that there'll be more attendance at the referendum vote, especially from the true Brits to avoid what we saw in 2011, which was the SNP winning many seats from 40% of the turnout. That means that everyone who wanted independence turned up and the true Brits didn't stop them.

The SNP demolished the rest in 2011, not because of a low turnout, but because they were are far more attractive option than Labour - probably still are, and thats with them trying to break up the country and all, which irritates a lot of people understandably.

It is understandable though, the SNP have an advantage of running a change campaign during an economic slump so the apparent options to many are 'either it stays the same or we do something different and it might make it better'.

Yup, how did Barrack Obama get the gig? 'Change' - one freaking word.
I know someone who very rarely hears anyone say something nice about such and such - a none-sentence if ever I heard one.
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MatureStudent36
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#2638
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#2638
(Original post by Boab)
Shall we define scaremongering?

Name:  sun-front-page-may-2007.jpg
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Actually we've done just fine as it turns out.

Trade between Scotland and England is just as important for England as it is Scotland, so the idea of barriers being put in place are nonsensical, and petty scaremongering (there's trhat word again). How about we deal with the more important issues like.....

How would the NHS serve us, what will be done with pensions, what tax initiatives might be taken, what will happen with education, where will we spend less, and where will we spend more? Other such questions, rather than creating issues that are imaginary - making Faslane a British sovreign territory!

I want independence because I support free education, I want the NHS to stay as a National Health Service, not what the UK government are turning it into, I support policies more inclined with the left leaning SNP, Labour and Liberals in Scotland than the right of centre Conservatives and creeping Labour.
I want to spend the money we are going to waste on Trident, HS2, a new London airport etc etc elsewhere, I want money from oil invested into our infrastructure and a future fund, and most of all i trust that the people of Scotland are more than capable of running their own country.

We will always share a huge common interests with England, Wales and Ireland, and independence will not end that, but I am sick and fed up with the policies of Westminster.
You've managed to cover pretty much all the devolved issues there as reasons for separating. I emphasis devolved as we already have control over Education and Healthcare. So I don't know why the SNP and yourself keep going on about these issues, as they are controlled by Holyrood. You seem to think however that if, and that's a big if, that the rUK will actually care about NHS Scotland. They won't, just as we wouldn't be caring what happens to rUK NHS.

Free higher education is a misnomer. It doesn't benefit everybody in society, it benefits the middle classes who are the most likely to send their kids to University. Not the working classes families as they go to colleges in general to do vocational training which the SNP has cut funding for. But guess who's funding the higher education? The Middle classes are claiming a huge subsidy from the working classes who in general start paying taxes earlier.

But you are right, different countries do try and support each other, but not to the detriment of self interest. I'm not exactly seeing Germanys handling of the Euro crisis benefiting those countries struggling at the moment. Why not? Because it would be detrimental to Germany and its population. This fallacy that some how we'll have a social union where everything will change but nothing will change is just pie in the sky. Do you really think for example rUK will continue to use the Clyde for shipbuilding when they've got the potential to create jobs elsewhere. Even Salmond acknowledges that it would have a detrimental effect on the North of England, yet he still tries to tell them that it would be good for them. Only he and his followers can see a benefit in that.


You may disagree with things like Trident, as do many people. Butthey normally overlook that things like Trident have kept the peace for 70 years, even when there were two rather large Armies facing each other for a good portion of that time.

You may disagree with HS2. But why you disagree with a new rail network that connects us to Europe and reduces capacity problems on the existing rail network I don't know. Actually I do know. Because he hasn't been started in Scotland and then constructed southwards to the actual European connection you somehow feel hard done by. You'd much rather see a High Speed Rail network go from Glasgow to Manchester, involve a change to a slower, running at capacity rail network from Manchester to London, and then jump on another High Speed Train to go from London to the Continent. As opposed to the building the network up from it's existing base outwards.


The Oil money has been invested in our infrastructure and our future, but we've also had investment from the rather large amounts of money generated from the city of London, the pharmaceuticals industry and automotive and aerospace. You seem to forget that Salmonds mythical oil numbers were based on one year. If you cherry pick numbers, they can tell you anything. But even with his cherry picked data, we still an a deficit. A deficit means no savings, so no oil fund. But you can read the SNPs own take on that. The stuff that they say in private, but not in public.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdfhttp://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf


It's not negative or scaremongering. It's just the truth. Something that the SNP have been somewhat lacking in telling us in the past.

Where was the legal advice they claimed they had on Europe? It didn't exist.

They assured us we'd be let straight into NATO. They've only just bothered asking now and even that's a no. We'll get in, but not automatically.

Where's the Saudi Arabia of renewables that we were promised. That's right they got that wrong.

Where's the 10,000s of Renewables jobs we were promised. That's right they haven't materialised

Scottish Taxpayers money was to be used to be funding the new London Sewer system. Oh that's right, London's paying for its own sewage system.


Scottish Oil money is being used to support London and the South East. Somehow Salmond seems to think that the highest earning part of the UK, with the lowest Government spend per Capita is stealing our money. Actually no. They're subsidisng the rest of the UK.
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MatureStudent36
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#2639
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#2639
(Original post by Snagprophet)
I love how my mum, who's moved back to Scotland, very rarely sees anyone with anything nice to say about Salmond and the SNP.

I do hope that there'll be more attendance at the referendum vote, especially from the true Brits to avoid what we saw in 2011, which was the SNP winning many seats from 40% of the turnout. That means that everyone who wanted independence turned up and the true Brits didn't stop them.

It is understandable though, the SNP have an advantage of running a change campaign during an economic slump so the apparent options to many are 'either it stays the same or we do something different and it might make it better'.
And that economic slump is now becoming History. We've managed to ride out a very serious economic downturn and I think that give it time and people will look back and realise that it wasn't as bad as it was made out to be.
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Boab
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#2640
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#2640
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You've managed to cover pretty much all the devolved issues there as reasons for separating. I emphasis devolved as we already have control over Education and Healthcare. So I don't know why the SNP and yourself keep going on about these issues, as they are controlled by Holyrood. You seem to think however that if, and that's a big if, that the rUK will actually care about NHS Scotland. They won't, just as we wouldn't be caring what happens to rUK NHS.

I only covered 'some' issues, I could go on obviously, and whilst they are devolved in many cases, we still rely on our 'block grant' to run them.

Free higher education is a misnomer. It doesn't benefit everybody in society, it benefits the middle classes who are the most likely to send their kids to University. Not the working classes families as they go to colleges in general to do vocational training which the SNP has cut funding for. But guess who's funding the higher education? The Middle classes are claiming a huge subsidy from the working classes who in general start paying taxes earlier.

But you are right, different countries do try and support each other, but not to the detriment of self interest. I'm not exactly seeing Germanys handling of the Euro crisis benefiting those countries struggling at the moment. Why not? Because it would be detrimental to Germany and its population. This fallacy that some how we'll have a social union where everything will change but nothing will change is just pie in the sky. Do you really think for example rUK will continue to use the Clyde for shipbuilding when they've got the potential to create jobs elsewhere. Even Salmond acknowledges that it would have a detrimental effect on the North of England, yet he still tries to tell them that it would be good for them. Only he and his followers can see a benefit in that.


You may disagree with things like Trident, as do many people. Butthey normally overlook that things like Trident have kept the peace for 70 years, even when there were two rather large Armies facing each other for a good portion of that time.

Nonsense - absolutly ****ing nonsense. I'm a mature student too and about to end a 12 year career in the army. I have studied a lot about the cold war and I can assure you the UK having trident had NOTHING to do with keeping the peace.

You may disagree with HS2. But why you disagree with a new rail network that connects us to Europe and reduces capacity problems on the existing rail network I don't know. Actually I do know. Because he hasn't been started in Scotland and then constructed southwards to the actual European connection you somehow feel hard done by. You'd much rather see a High Speed Rail network go from Glasgow to Manchester, involve a change to a slower, running at capacity rail network from Manchester to London, and then jump on another High Speed Train to go from London to the Continent. As opposed to the building the network up from it's existing base outwards.

Don't want to argue about HS2 - would be here all year. There are better ways to spend the money on infrastructure projects is all I will say.

The Oil money has been invested in our infrastructure and our future, but we've also had investment from the rather large amounts of money generated from the city of London, the pharmaceuticals industry and automotive and aerospace. You seem to forget that Salmonds mythical oil numbers were based on one year. If you cherry pick numbers, they can tell you anything. But even with his cherry picked data, we still an a deficit. A deficit means no savings, so no oil fund. But you can read the SNPs own take on that. The stuff that they say in private, but not in public.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdfhttp://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf


It's not negative or scaremongering. It's just the truth. Something that the SNP have been somewhat lacking in telling us in the past.

Where was the legal advice they claimed they had on Europe? It didn't exist.

They assured us we'd be let straight into NATO. They've only just bothered asking now and even that's a no. We'll get in, but not automatically.

Where's the Saudi Arabia of renewables that we were promised. That's right they got that wrong.

Where's the 10,000s of Renewables jobs we were promised. That's right they haven't materialised

Scottish Taxpayers money was to be used to be funding the new London Sewer system. Oh that's right, London's paying for its own sewage system.


Scottish Oil money is being used to support London and the South East. Somehow Salmond seems to think that the highest earning part of the UK, with the lowest Government spend per Capita is stealing our money. Actually no. They're subsidisng the rest of the UK.
It is scaremongering to come out with the worst possible scenario time after time and present it as fact. That is what is happening day after day.

As for the 'Free Education' thang!
Its not a misnomer. The SNP might be guilty of taking money from Peter to pay Paul in this case, but in an independent Scotland with more levers to shift money around I am sure education would be funded far better.

As for the 'middle class kids', well there may be an element of truth to that, but that is something we need to correct. Will it ever happen within the UK? No. Could it possibly be done in an independent Scotland? More likely.

As a 'working class' sic, kid, am I more likely to go to Uni when I get a grant and don't have to pay £9000 a year, or vice versa? Thats a non-question if ever I heard one.
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