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Doctor Who - Discussion Thread III (no untagged future spoilers) Watch

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    (Original post by bluester)
    sorry if this is a really stupid question, but who is the old man/curator at the end? is he someone we are suppose to know?
    He was Tom Baker - the man who played the fourth Doctor back in the 70s, the longest-serving Doctor, and the man widely regarded to be the best Doctor there ever was.
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    Everyone, please stop trying to figure out all the time paradoxes. That's the whole point. They are paradoxical. :rolleyes:

    Well, to everyone except the Doctor, that is. (Or is it 'Doctors'. Splendid fellow. All 13 of him. Or is it 12? Was then then? Or still to come? Er.... )
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    (Original post by snowyowl)
    He was Tom Baker - the man who played the fourth Doctor back in the 70s, the longest-serving Doctor, and the man widely regarded to be the best Doctor there ever was.
    thanks for that - thought I regonised him but couldn't be sure not so good with the old doctors!!!
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    (Original post by Jarred)
    I thought it was absolutely amazing, the best moment of Dr Who I've ever witnessed actually. I'm still hyped up now, it was great. Watching in the cinema certainly added to the experience. I only booked my tickets at the last minute yesterday and I'm glad I did.

    I lost count of the amount of people I saw in fezzes, tweed jackets, bow ties or multicoloured scarves.
    A friend of mine just tweeted that she was watching it in a hotel bar in Edinburgh and when Tom Baker appeared, everyone cheered! :lol:
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    Oh my God. That was brilliant, did anyone see the 5ish Doctors? Great comedy!! Even John Barrowman was in it.
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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    They travelled in their own time stream though, didn't They?

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    Im also a bit confused on how they managed to get to Gallifrey when it was time locked, but I think Bad Wolf being the god of time or something unlocked it exclusively for Smith and Tennant. But the whole time stream thingy confuses me.
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    (Original post by bluester)
    thanks for that - thought I regonised him but couldn't be sure not so good with the old doctors!!!
    His hallmark is the very long tartan scarf, but as the old Doctor (the 'Curator'), he wasn't wearing it, somewhat confusingly.

    Was my impression that he was intended to represent the final regeneration 'still to come' right? Or was he some kind of strange redundant non-regenerating timeline on the side, where the Dr had just aged within his regeneration?
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    (Original post by Farseer)
    But wasn't the whole time war, time locked? Despite this, 10 and 11 (though really should call them 11 and 12?) traveled into the time war to stop the war doctor from using the moment. Instead deciding to freeze/move Gallifrey...
    Yeah, but I think it's obvious by that point that normal rules don't apply. The Doctors' timestream is never meant to overlap itself either - past doctors can't meet future doctors, but it happened. I'd imagine that it's easily explainable by the fact that Ten and Eleven were already inside of Hurt's timestream (which could feasibly bypass a timelock), or we can just accept that a lot of crazy **** happened that episode that we thought was impossible. Why not one more thing?


    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Everyone, please stop trying to figure out all the time paradoxes. That's the whole point. They are paradoxical. :rolleyes:

    Well, to everyone except the Doctor, that is. (Or is it 'Doctors'. Splendid fellow. All 13 of him. Or is it 12? Was then then? Or still to come? Er.... )
    13 of them. 11 that we know so far + Hurt + Capaldi.
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    (Original post by Farseer)
    But wasn't the whole time war, time locked? Despite this, 10 and 11 (though really should call them 11 and 12?) traveled into the time war to stop the war doctor from using the moment. Instead deciding to freeze/move Gallifrey...
    I probably misunderstand it but the way I understand the time lock just means that this part of history can never be changed, but if the Doctors were always supposed to travel to this point to freeze Gallifrey then it doesn't matter because they haven't changed history. Gallifrey was never going to be destroyed in any timeline and the Doctors were always meant to join together to save it.
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    There was that lovely bit with all the Doctors looking up at home, when 11 narrated that's his new set destination. It implied that Gallifrey was a reachable place now? What repercussions this has wrt End of Time I still don't know, but I personally took it to mean that Gallifrey is not timelocked or out of reach any more. Ofc getting/finding there is a different issue altogether. :dontknow:
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    (Original post by justanotherposter)
    I probably misunderstand it but the way I understand the time lock just means that this part of history can never be changed, but if the Doctors were always supposed to travel to this point to freeze Gallifrey then it doesn't matter because they haven't changed history. Gallifrey was never going to be destroyed in any timeline and the Doctors were always meant to join together to save it.
    I agree. Could it not be due to the fact, that they (the doctors) forgot, meaning that the Doctor only thought that is was timelocked when this is what happened all along.
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    (Original post by Mr.Messy)
    There was that lovely bit with all the Doctors looking up at home, when 11 narrated that's his new set destination. It implied that Gallifrey was a reachable place now? What repercussions this has wrt End of Time I still don't know, but I personally took it to mean that Gallifrey is not timelocked or out of reach any more. Ofc getting/finding there is a different issue altogether. :dontknow:
    Gallifrey was always reachable, but since John Hurt and David Tennant's doctors forgot about saving Gallifrey they assumed that it had been destroyed and so didn't think there was a Gallifrey to find. Now that Matt Smith's Doctor knows the truth he is going to make it his mission to find and unfreeze Gallifrey.
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    I'm actually annoyed they put Capaldi in there tbh. There will probably be a moment in a future episode that references just how the **** he actually knew what was going on / what to do but I think it was just unnecessary, especially when we'll see him in a month anyway..

    No doubt it'll set off conspiracy theorists chasing the 13 lives thing though since there were none of the other future regens. :rolleyes:

    There was a tiny bit where he flicked a switch in his TARDIS IIRC, was it a fresh interface I wonder? :holmes:
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    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    Yeah, but I think it's obvious by that point that normal rules don't apply. The Doctors' timestream is never meant to overlap itself either - past doctors can't meet future doctors, but it happened. I'd imagine that it's easily explainable by the fact that Ten and Eleven were already inside of Hurt's timestream (which could feasibly bypass a timelock), or we can just accept that a lot of crazy **** happened that episode that we thought was impossible. Why not one more thing?
    For me, it just ruins a really pivotal part of the doctors life since the re-birth of the show, that we're told that he has a dark past where he did terrible but necessary things that he was deeply ashamed of. The upsetting thing is that this was an irreversible decision that he can't go back and fix - and he has to live with it, feeling alone. A time lock implies that you can't use time travel to get around it. But now, it's just ''nah, lets go back and change it'' and timey-wimey his memory so that he forgets what he just did five minutes ago for continuity sake - just like we forget that the Timelords are evil at this point and about as worth saving as the Daleks are.
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    (Original post by Mr.Messy)
    I really loved the interactions between all the Doctors. All the past-references and quips they threw at each other were brilliant.

    Rose wasn't really rose though. The Moment's operating system chose an interface based off of someone the Doctor met and should therefore recognise, but she picked someone from the future and that's someone John Hurt's Doc has yet to meet. Said her/it's self that it gets confused between the past/present/future or something like that. I too would've loved it if 'Rose' interacted with 10 as well but its her aesthetically, not personally. 10s face when he heard Bad Wolf though, so close. :cry:

    Its had a few bumps along the road ever since Moffat took over, but hopefully he can now make episodes as good as that, and on a consistent basis too. (Probably one of the few that thinks that atm but whatever :ahee:). Actually believe that the standard episode run time(45 minutes?) is too short for a Moffat story but that's a debate for another day. :moon:
    Exactly, that's what's wrong. She was BadWolf which makes sense but it should have been an actual version of her.

    I do like the opportunities a time locked Gallifrey presents, i can't wait for the Masters return.
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    Truly disappointed with the episode.
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    Tonight's episode is confirmation that I have outgrown the show, and that the show is now firmly targeted at young children.

    Why is the BBC so scared of moral dubiousness? Paying a price and living by your decisions is what makes characters interesting and stories worth following. Removing the guilt of this decision reduces the Doctor to a one-dimensional "hero" good guy.

    The only thing that made the Doctor an interesting character was his constant battle to redeem himself from disgrace. But anything morally grey is obviously above the grasp of the audience the BBC now want to target.

    I also don't understand why they didn't focus more on the weight of the decision. Why should we not see the Doctor kill millions to save billions? This was a perfect opportunity to add depth, and instead they cop out with some easy fix.

    If there was an easy fix then the timelords on Gallefray, who far outnumbered, outskilled and outranked the Doctor would have found it. The whole premise of the series is that the Doctor is the only remaining timelord by his own hand and that he sacrificed his people to save the Universe.

    Finally, I hated the incosistencies in the story. The time war was supposedly timelocked in order to protect the Universe (and stop the war from spilling over) by the Doctor - this core story is basically ignored.

    The time lords are also supposed to be a proud, vain, battlehardened and vicious people - instead we see them floundering and only as victims of the Daleks. The time war had atrocities on both sides - remember the timelords burned worlds too in their fight against the Daleks.

    What we have just seen is the genocide of the Daleks at the hand of the Doctor. To me, that seems morally worse (although interesting if they were to expand on it) than protecting the whole Universe sealing off the war and damning both sides. Yet because the Daleks are robotic, and the timelords are humanoid - and therefore by default good, the Doctor is portrayed as a hero.

    We hear a lot of timelord children - but what of Dalek children? The timelords had already destroyed major Dalek settlements so it is not justifiable to justify this as the Daleks were attackers (by all appearances the timelords were close to loosing, though again this is a misportrayal as the time war was supposed to be evenly matched and essentially neverending.)

    TL;DR I'm not happy because the Doctor has been has reduced to a one dimensional "hero", the timelords portrayed solely as blameless victims and the total failure to pick up on the Doctor's war crime of genocide or even hint at it as a possible source of moral ambiguity.

    The BBC has sanitised Doctor Who so they can spoon feed it to toddlers and Americans. But how are children even supposed to learn if they do not see that sometimes there is a least bad option and that everybody has to live with the consequences of the choices they make?
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    To the people saying stuff about galifrey being time-locked... as others have said, it was never time locked. 9th and 10th forgot all of the events of tonights episode due to their timelines being out of sync. Therefore they believed they destroyed galifrey and the daleks when in fact it had always just been moved and the daleks destroyed themselves.

    Anyway I thought the special was pretty good, not enough daleks imo but thats my only criticism. I am excited about the future of doctor who for the first time in ages. I want Susan to come back!!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    His hallmark is the very long tartan scarf, but as the old Doctor (the 'Curator'), he wasn't wearing it, somewhat confusingly.

    Was my impression that he was intended to represent the final regeneration 'still to come' right? Or was he some kind of strange redundant non-regenerating timeline on the side, where the Dr had just aged within his regeneration?
    Yes. He was a time stream in which a future Doctor finally settles down. Now that the Doctor is going for Gallifrey this timeline no longer exists.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    His hallmark is the very long tartan scarf, but as the old Doctor (the 'Curator'), he wasn't wearing it, somewhat confusingly.

    Was my impression that he was intended to represent the final regeneration 'still to come' right? Or was he some kind of strange redundant non-regenerating timeline on the side, where the Dr had just aged within his regeneration?
    My own personal theory is that it is the Fourth Doctor. However, after the "Gallifrey Falls No More" incident, he continued to live within the time stream of his future, ageing considerably due to his disruptive existence within a different incarnations' timeline. During this period he tried to find out what had truly become of Gallifrey, acquiring the Painting and becoming the curator along the way. In the end however, he realised that it was up to his future incarnations to discover the true fate and location of Gallifrey, and so he passed on his knowledge to the 11th Doctor before departing, losing his memories, and de-ageing.

    The High Council will have to be dealt with however. The Nightmare Child is still locked away, along with the rest of the abominations. They were still wiped out, and the war is still time-locked, the only difference is that Gallifrey is simply lost and not burnt.

    There are two reasons as far as I can see as to why there were only 13 Doctors mentioned, the first being that there were indeed more, but they failed to mention them due to the fact that Moffat wanted to play it safe, or that the remaining incarnations exist after Gallifrey's restoration, they may only be able to exist after the restoration, and are thus unable to aid.

    As for the location of Gallifrey, well, all you have to do is look.
 
 
 
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