Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
punani
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#2741
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#2741
(Original post by Good bloke)
You demonstrate an extremely naïve and ill-informed understanding of the reality. You have obviously been reading what Dr Qvortup has said. The UK simply won't be granting Scotland the right to secede on the basis that it doesn't pick up its share of the debt. It brought debt to the UK, and it must take its share with it.

If the UK won't negotiate independence unless the debt is shared, and Scotland declares UDI, then an independent Scotland must be an illegal regime - by definition.
I don't think that I do. I think it is more naive to believe that Scotland would be left without membership of the EU, UN etc, be banned from using the pound have no succession rights whatsoever and be expected to pick up a part of the debt. This scenario is the naive and ill-informed view that many No campaigners seem to propagate. Look at the case of Serbia & Montenegro and Yugoslavia. They wanted to be the succession country but were not granted it and they started with no debt.

Either there is an equal split of all the assets and debts with Scotland keeping succession rights that the UK holds or it makes a complete split from the UK and is burdened with none of the debt.

You can't have it both ways.
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Maths Tutor
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#2742
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#2742
According to those who are anti-independence, the 'legal' position is completely clear:

- Scotland inherits her share of the trillion pounds plus UK national debt;

- Scotland DOES NOT INHERIT ANY ASSETS of the UK.
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uktotalgamer
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#2743
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#2743
Yes. They can **** off. They don't know how lucky they are to have us. Hope to god they vote yes because I would place my house on them being bankrupt and in the **** a year later.
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punani
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#2744
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#2744
(Original post by uktotalgamer)
Yes. They can **** off. They don't know how lucky they are to have us. Hope to god they vote yes because I would place my house on them being bankrupt and in the **** a year later.
Bankruptcy due to the Darien Empire was the main reason why we joined in a Union with England in the first place. It would be rather unfortunate if leaving the union was the reason for another one.
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uktotalgamer
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#2745
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#2745
(Original post by punani)
Bankruptcy due to the Darien Empire was the main reason why we joined in a Union with England in the first place. It would be rather unfortunate if leaving the union was the reason for another one.
Salmonds an arrogant moron, infact anyone in scotland who thinks independance is a good thing is arrogant. They all make it sound like it'll be just as easy as running a student council or something like this. I hope this blows back in their face I really do. Salmond has made this aggressive and offensive for no reason. It's not about asking nicely or anything like this but he's just so arrogant.
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L i b
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#2746
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#2746
(Original post by punani)
Yes, I understand this would be the correct way, constitutionally speaking. But if Scotland voted Yes and just declared itself independent. What would happen?
Absolutely nothing. I could declare Scotland independent right now, it doesn't mean it would be. The only body with the power to actually put that into practice is the UK Parliament.

So yes, declare away. British passports will still be required, taxes will still be levied, the law will still be upheld, the armed forces will continue to defend us and the Union Jack would still be hoisted each morning over Edinburgh Castle.

(Original post by punani)
It is a precedent under international law that when countries split up, unless it is an equal split, then the successor state is the state that carries the debt burden. The UK Government has quite categorically stated that it shall be the successor state.
Nope, the UK Government's position has always been that it will be the same state, not a successor.

The only way Westminster can avoid this is if the split would be deemed to form 2 co-equal successor states. This would then mean that Scotland would be automatically accepted as a member of the EU, UN and all other organisations that the UK is in.
Even equal successor states don't automatically gain entry to international organisations with established membership rules.
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Maths Tutor
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#2747
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#2747
(Original post by L i b)
The man who authors Wings Over Scotland is a basement-dwelling bigot. And it isn't just me, or unionists, saying that. There are plenty of nationalists that will tell you that.

In my experience, he appeals to a certain subsection of nationalists. Typically aggressive men who, it appears, are prepared to swallow anything he writes - yet condemn those who believe the 'mainstream media'.
Why don't you point to one of the hundreds of articles on his blog http://wingsoverscotland.com and highlight any bigotry in it?
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Maths Tutor
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#2748
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#2748
(Original post by punani)
Bankruptcy due to the Darien Empire was the main reason why we joined in a Union with England in the first place. It would be rather unfortunate if leaving the union was the reason for another one.
Who was bankrupt and was bailed out?

- Scotland as a nation?

OR

- The aristocrats responsible for the Darien project?
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Good bloke
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#2749
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#2749
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
According to those who are anti-independence, the 'legal' position is completely clear:

- Scotland inherits her share of the trillion pounds plus UK national debt;

- Scotland DOES NOT INHERIT ANY ASSETS of the UK.
This is a ridiculous thing to say; it is pure drivel. An independent Scotland would obviously take on many of the assets of the UK. For instance, a large part of its territory, an equivalent part of its littoral, government-owned and crown-owned property in Scotland and, most importantly, people.
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MatureStudent36
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#2750
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#2750
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Give some examples of European jingoism. No-one honest or in their right mind would suggest that flying the European Union flag is a symbol of European jingoism.

You ARE a British Nationalist through and through, that is why you so proudly fly a flag of British Nationalism.

What does the British navy represent? British military power right? British jingoism right? Rule Britannia right?

It is TOTAL DISHONESTY to fly the British navy flag and at the same time deny being a British nationalist.

You're a little unbalanced aren't you? This is why I don't believe in seperation. It's thought up by and believed in by iirrational people such as yourself with little to no appreciation of the real world. Fantasists who try and belittle and besmirch anybody who doesn't buy into their fantasy.
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Hanvyj
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#2751
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#2751
I'd be sad if Scotland became independent. I like it, and it's part of my country/nationality. I think we get along well enough...
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CatrinJones
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#2752
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#2752
It boils down to the fact that Scotland is its own country and England has no right to command them. I personally have to hope that Scotland will one day be independent, because otherwise Wales doesn't have a chance and that's just depressing. Why is everyone so convinced that smaller economies can't possibly survive? Its patronizing.
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Psyk
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#2753
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#2753
(Original post by CatrinJones)
It boils down to the fact that Scotland is its own country and England has no right to command them. I personally have to hope that Scotland will one day be independent, because otherwise Wales doesn't have a chance and that's just depressing. Why is everyone so convinced that smaller economies can't possibly survive? Its patronizing.
Do you think Scotland has the right to command the Shetland isles?
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FinalMH
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#2754
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#2754
(Original post by CatrinJones)
It boils down to the fact that Scotland is its own country and England has no right to command them. I personally have to hope that Scotland will one day be independent, because otherwise Wales doesn't have a chance and that's just depressing. Why is everyone so convinced that smaller economies can't possibly survive? Its patronizing.
:confused: England doesn't command anything. England, Scotland, Northern Island, and Wales are part of a union called the United Kingdom. Each citizen of the United Kingdom has an equal say in the governance of their country, a vote from one citizen in Wales is equal to vote in England.

I don't believe people are questioning the survival of countries but questioning their standard of living decreasing. The Sottish National party haven't provide any conclusive evidence to suggest that the people of Scotland will live better economical lives under independence.

If you disagree with the union then what is your opinion of the European union?
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NDGAARONDI
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#2755
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#2755
(Original post by CatrinJones)
It boils down to the fact that Scotland is its own country and England has no right to command them. I personally have to hope that Scotland will one day be independent, because otherwise Wales doesn't have a chance and that's just depressing. Why is everyone so convinced that smaller economies can't possibly survive? Its patronizing.
Scotland ceased in being its own country since 1707. In terms of what constitutes a country, Wales goes one better than Scotland because of their proficiency of their indigenous language, which is more than can be said for Scotland. You'd have to adopt the Euro upon secession so you'll have to consider the impact of this currency on the Scottish economy, if you were to remain in the EU of course.
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Piprod01
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#2756
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#2756
(Original post by L i b)
Within the Yes Campaign tent is Colin Fox, a hardened socialist leader of the SSP, and Peter De Vink, a councillor who got kicked out of the Tories, but works in finance and raised money for Maggie Thatcher. Both of them have radically different visions.

Equally, Conservatives and Labour activists have very differing views of the future of Britain. These are things which are decided by normal elections. I don't think you would likely talk to a Labour activist and have him say 'yeah, I think things should stay much the same'. No, he'd probably talk to you (and I'm a Tory, so I'm guessing) about health inequalities, the unfair distribution of wealth, the strong communities we could build by working together, how to address anti-social behaviour in poorer communities, how to address the needs of homeless people.

In all honesty, it seems that Scottish people don't give two ****s about improving Scotland, and instead want to have endless tedious constitutional debates in place of real politics. No-one's talking about the demographic challenge to the NHS, or worklessness, or our poor educational outcomes - they're talking about the referendum.
Conservatives got 1/3rd of the votes in the whole of the UK, in Scotland they got about a 1/6th. So if you're left leaning it's pretty obvious why the politics of an independent Scotland would better suit you. There are plenty of things some of which you've touched on that'd I'd like to see improved.

That you think there's apathy towards these things is probably more to do with the conservative mindset than you know the people actually making proactive steps (voting for independence) to make them better.
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Piprod01
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#2757
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#2757
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Scotland ceased in being its own country since 1707. In terms of what constitutes a country, Wales goes one better than Scotland because of their proficiency of their indigenous language, which is more than can be said for Scotland. You'd have to adopt the Euro upon secession so you'll have to consider the impact of this currency on the Scottish economy, if you were to remain in the EU of course.
You do realise that you don't have to adopt the Euro:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

You can basically say you're committing to it to be part of the EU, and never actually introduce it - and given the current state of it, it'd might not even be an option after the two year minimum wait / other conditions.
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MatureStudent36
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#2758
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#2758
(Original post by Piprod01)
You do realise that you don't have to adopt the Euro:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

You can basically say you're committing to it to be part of the EU, and never actually introduce it - and given the current state of it, it'd might not even be an option after the two year minimum wait / other conditions.

So we'd end up joining under false pretences?
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MatureStudent36
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#2759
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#2759
(Original post by CatrinJones)
It boils down to the fact that Scotland is its own country and England has no right to command them. I personally have to hope that Scotland will one day be independent, because otherwise Wales doesn't have a chance and that's just depressing. Why is everyone so convinced that smaller economies can't possibly survive? Its patronizing.

The revisionist nationalist!

you are aware that England didnt conquer us? It's a union between equal states.
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Good bloke
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#2760
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#2760
(Original post by Piprod01)
You do realise that you don't have to adopt the Euro:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro

You can basically say you're committing to it to be part of the EU, and never actually introduce it - and given the current state of it, it'd might not even be an option after the two year minimum wait / other conditions.
In which case Scotland would need another currency. The two most likely candidates are a Scottish pound, which would suffer from the disadvantage of being a petrocurrency, and sterling, over which Scotland would have less influence than it does now (which seems to contradict the whole ethos of independence).
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