TSR Pagan Society Watch

Hravan
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#261
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#261
(Original post by Hylean)
I can't be assed arguing with you, to be honest. You make the assumption that it is incompatible with paganism, but why? Where does it state that abortion is against the tenants of paganism? Paganism, which originally involved human sacrifice and cannibalism? Paganism isn't about reverence for life and nature, it's about finding the divine in nature, and accepting the good and bad. As I've repeatedly told you, abortion drugs have existed for millenia and as they exist in nature, without need for anything else, that would suggest it is fine. You ignored this argument by rattling on about miscarriages and abortions being different, which is when I stopped paying too much attention to you. You also attempted to cut off one of the arguments: that death is an inherent part of nature. You can't start a debate and then just go, "by the way, you can't use this argument because I don't like it". You're approaching abortion from an emotional and philosophical stand-point, neither of which is taking it from a pagan viewpoint.

Again, why should abortion not work with paganism? Pagans aborted babies for millenia by enducing miscarriages and you think you know better than they what paganism can and cannot include? Go away and take your sanctimonious bull**** elsewhere, please.

Paganism isn't just one solidifed religion, there are multiple paths, cults and beliefs found within it. This means pagans can worship death, etc. and quite happily kill babies, etc. More than that, the idea of a soul is generally a troublesome point when it comes to European paganism, so the idea of a baby's life beginning at conception is a detail that was never dealt with in the original religions and thus has been greatly influenced by Christianity in the reconstructions, some of which rip the **** out of the original source material.

Come back when you've done more research on what paganism actually is, please. It's not just what you've decided it to be.
+1!

I get fed up with people (mainly the pop-wiccans) who completely disregard the death aspect... But we must remember.. Paganism is all about light and love and rainbows and fluffy clouds and cute puppies... :rolleyes:
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#262
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#262
Finally you (Hylean and Hravan) are out of the closet. You are happy with a paganism that accepts killing babies, cannabalism and worships death.

Beware of who you invite your table. Hecate and her triple headed dog know no mercy.

Your honesty is refreshing and puts an end to my debate with you.

You are both in my prayers. God bless you.

Pax et Bonum
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#263
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#263
This is my last post on this thread. I posted this in response to a pagan's post on a Catholic thread:

Unfortunately, despite prevailing mythologies, much of Paganism was made up in the 20th Century and is still being made up as it goes along. Thus the pagan is insecure and floundering in an egocentric, but ultimately doomed world. Doomed in the sense of being unsatisfying in an intellectual and emotional sense to those who have the wit to question what they are doing and why.

There is no consistent philosophy underpinning Paganism, no real history or sense of continuity with early practitioners because of a lack of consistency. What is happening is that the practitioner is creating a 'myth to live by' out of a set of worldly, universal myths. It can feel terribly lonely and frightening at times to be in a world that has no salvation, no purpose and offers nothing but suffering until death no matter how many candles are lit and clever chants are sung.

It is a tragedy that so many souls are lost in this pit.
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Hravan
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#264
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#264
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
Finally you (Hylean and Hravan) are out of the closet. You are happy with a paganism that accepts killing babies, cannabalism and worships death.

Beware of who you invite your table. Hecate and her triple headed dog know no mercy.

Your honesty is refreshing and puts an end to my debate with you.

You are both in my prayers. God bless you.

Pax et Bonum
Worship death? Where did we mention anything about worshipping death, you idiot? It's about ACCEPTING death as part of life... Which most people just want to stick their heads in the sand about...

Do not DARE you put words in my mouth because I have the audacity to have a different opinion to you. Guess what?! People have different opinions about things! Grow up and get over yourself.. You have no right, NONE AT ALL, to try to control other people's lives.

And I do not want your prayers and stop trying to patronise us.
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Hravan
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#265
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#265
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
This is my last post on this thread. I posted this in response to a pagan's post on a Catholic thread:

Unfortunately, despite prevailing mythologies, much of Paganism was made up in the 20th Century and is still being made up as it goes along. Thus the pagan is insecure and floundering in an egocentric, but ultimately doomed world. Doomed in the sense of being unsatisfying in an intellectual and emotional sense to those who have the wit to question what they are doing and why.

There is no consistent philosophy underpinning Paganism, no real history or sense of continuity with early practitioners because of a lack of consistency. What is happening is that the practitioner is creating a 'myth to live by' out of a set of worldly, universal myths. It can feel terribly lonely and frightening at times to be in a world that has no salvation, no purpose and offers nothing but suffering until death no matter how many candles are lit and clever chants are sung.

It is a tragedy that so many souls are lost in this pit.
You do realise that you are talking a load of bull****?

Wiccan was made up in the 20th century. There are plenty of other pagan paths which have been around for hundreds of years but I'm guessing you're one of the ignorant idiots who think that Paganism = Wicca and just try to put down and control other people when you have no idea what you are talking about.....
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HellOnHighHeels
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#266
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#266
I'd call myself AtheistISH, as I have Pagan beliefs-Good & Evil, Karma, Reincarnation. and I'd say I'm more inclined towards Dark paganism, as my mum puts it (yep, she's pagan) rather than Atheism at the mo.
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Pandora.
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#267
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#267
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
Finally you (Hylean and Hravan) are out of the closet. You are happy with a paganism that accepts killing babies, cannabalism and worships death.

Beware of who you invite your table. Hecate and her triple headed dog know no mercy.

Your honesty is refreshing and puts an end to my debate with you.

You are both in my prayers. God bless you.

Pax et Bonum
If only you were here when I first joined this thread. I wish I had known earlier that I'd be talking to cannibals, murderers and satanists. Your insight would have made such a difference.

(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
This is my last post on this thread. I posted this in response to a pagan's post on a Catholic thread:

Unfortunately, despite prevailing mythologies, much of Paganism was made up in the 20th Century and is still being made up as it goes along. Thus the pagan is insecure and floundering in an egocentric, but ultimately doomed world. Doomed in the sense of being unsatisfying in an intellectual and emotional sense to those who have the wit to question what they are doing and why.

There is no consistent philosophy underpinning Paganism, no real history or sense of continuity with early practitioners because of a lack of consistency. What is happening is that the practitioner is creating a 'myth to live by' out of a set of worldly, universal myths. It can feel terribly lonely and frightening at times to be in a world that has no salvation, no purpose and offers nothing but suffering until death no matter how many candles are lit and clever chants are sung.

It is a tragedy that so many souls are lost in this pit.
I'd love to give a full response to your post, but I'm afraid I have to go kill next door's dog and dance around its corpse (which, incidentally, I will eat later. Yum). :rolleyes:
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Pandora.
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#268
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#268
(Original post by HellOnHighHeels)
I'd call myself AtheistISH, as I have Pagan beliefs-Good & Evil, Karma, Reincarnation. and I'd say I'm more inclined towards Dark paganism, as my mum puts it (yep, she's pagan) rather than Atheism at the mo.
How do you define 'dark paganism'? I know I could just google it, but I always find that it's better to get an opinion from someone who knows best.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#269
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#269
(Original post by Hravan)
There are plenty of other pagan paths which have been around for hundreds of years.
Prove it. Where are the books? Where are the lineages? Where is the evidence?

If you are going to talk about paganism in this way then you need to define which path you are talking about.

The term pagan used to mean any religion that wasn't Abrahamic, but I don't think you or anyone else on this thread is using in it that way.

You are taking about a particular paganism, so let's hear it. Which path?

I'm pretty sure that what you're referring to is a vague set of beliefs about nature, a vague identification with imaginary pagans in the past, a vague wonder at the natural world, making up your own rituals with candles, incense, herbs, chanting, (either read in a book written in the 20th century, found on the internet (written in the last few decades) or self created) and a dislike of authority and God.

Somehow I don't think that whatever brand of paganism (and it is a brand - Starhawk, Doreen Valiente, Scott Cunningham, Gerald Gardner, Alastair Crowley etc) you follow has any real, tangible, meaningful history. It is just another consumerist choice constructed to satisfy lost people.
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#270
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#270
(Original post by Pandora.)
If only you were here when I first joined this thread. I wish I had known earlier that I'd be talking to cannibals, murderers and satanists. Your insight would have made such a difference
It was Hylean (a fellow pagan) who said those things. I simply repeated what they had just posted!

They were saying that in this context abortion is acceptable to pagans.

I find it is a shocking as you do!
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#271
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#271
(Original post by Hylean)

Where does it state that abortion is against the tenants of paganism? Paganism, which originally involved human sacrifice and cannibalism?

This means pagans can worship death, etc. and quite happily kill babies.
Hylean's own words.
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HellOnHighHeels
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#272
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#272
(Original post by Pandora.)
How do you define 'dark paganism'? I know I could just google it, but I always find that it's better to get an opinion from someone who knows best.
I define it as an affiliation with the ''dark'' gods-Thor etc... and a preference to the darker witchcraft (I don't do spells etc)
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Pandora.
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#273
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#273
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
It was Hylean (a fellow pagan) who said those things. I simply repeated what they had just posted!

They were saying that in this context abortion is acceptable to pagans.

I find it is a shocking as you do!
But abortion is acceptable to me. There isn't a set code where all pagans have to have the same views on issues like this, viewpoints vary. A few pages back we were talking about eclectic paganism. One quote defines it well:
(Original post by Teao the Cat)
Eclectic paganism certainly does seem to be a popular choice for solitary pagans... I suppose we have more freedom when you aren't tied to the beliefs of others in the coven!
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Pandora.
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#274
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#274
(Original post by HellOnHighHeels)
I define it as an affiliation with the ''dark'' gods-Thor etc... and a preference to the darker witchcraft (I don't do spells etc)
Ah ok. I'll have to look into that, I hadn't heard of it before .
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HellOnHighHeels
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#275
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#275
(Original post by Pandora.)
Ah ok. I'll have to look into that, I hadn't heard of it before .
That's just what me & my mum call it, so it might be named differently elsewhere
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#276
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#276
Yes, I understand perfectly about eclectic paganism and have referred to it myself in several posts. The pagan 'community' is highly disparate and the majority practice alone. As I explained earlier, there is no coherent tradition or set of beliefs that paganism subscribes to. And each pagan is free (and often encouraged) to make up their own beliefs and practices as they go along. It is therefore the most relativistic 'faith' of any in the world.

The discussion involves those who argue for abortion within the context of their pagan beliefs. Apart from Hylean's rather hyperbolic take on those pagan strands that have been historically involved in cannabalism, human sacrifice and worshipping death therefore 'killing babies' is okay - Hylean's words not mine, I so far have not had a coherent justification.

I have reached the conclusion that apparently abortion is okay for pagans if it suits them. This is a pretty poor (and dangerous) intellectual, philosophical and spiritual position to be in.

So be it. But thanks to all who have taken the trouble to discuss this with me. And Hylean, Hravan and Joanne - Eve. I'm still praying for you.
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Pandora.
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#277
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#277
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
The discussion involves those who argue for abortion within the context of their pagan beliefs. Apart from Hylean's rather hyperbolic take on those pagan strands that have been historically involved in cannabalism, human sacrifice and worshipping death therefore 'killing babies' is okay - Hylean's words not mine, I so far have not had a coherent justification.
Can you quote Hylean's post where he said that?
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Arcane Barn Elk
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#278
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#278
I have quoted it before. But here it is again. I have bolded the statements concerned.


(Original post by Hylean)
I can't be assed arguing with you, to be honest. You make the assumption that it is incompatible with paganism, but why? Where does it state that abortion is against the tenants of paganism? Paganism, which originally involved human sacrifice and cannibalism? Paganism isn't about reverence for life and nature, it's about finding the divine in nature, and accepting the good and bad. As I've repeatedly told you, abortion drugs have existed for millenia and as they exist in nature, without need for anything else, that would suggest it is fine. You ignored this argument by rattling on about miscarriages and abortions being different, which is when I stopped paying too much attention to you. You also attempted to cut off one of the arguments: that death is an inherent part of nature. You can't start a debate and then just go, "by the way, you can't use this argument because I don't like it". You're approaching abortion from an emotional and philosophical stand-point, neither of which is taking it from a pagan viewpoint.

Again, why should abortion not work with paganism? Pagans aborted babies for millenia by enducing miscarriages and you think you know better than they what paganism can and cannot include? Go away and take your sanctimonious bull**** elsewhere, please.

Paganism isn't just one solidifed religion, there are multiple paths, cults and beliefs found within it. This means pagans can worship death, etc. and quite happily kill babies, etc. More than that, the idea of a soul is generally a troublesome point when it comes to European paganism, so the idea of a baby's life beginning at conception is a detail that was never dealt with in the original religions and thus has been greatly influenced by Christianity in the reconstructions, some of which rip the **** out of the original source material.

Come back when you've done more research on what paganism actually is, please. It's not just what you've decided it to be.
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hardleyouth
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#279
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#279
(Original post by Alpharius)
Whats the betting the person who de-repped the OP was a fundie of an Abrahamic religion...



You made a decision at 12/13?

For Gods sake girl, you have your whole life ahead of you! You had no idea (probably still don't) regarding who you are and what you want to do with your life.

But you're saying she's old enough to make the decision to not follow a religion too?
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Pandora.
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#280
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#280
(Original post by Arcane Barn Elk)
I have quoted it before. But here it is again. I have bolded the statements concerned.
The first bit in bold was a historical statement/fact, not a personal opinion on the issue.
The second bit in bold is a statement about the freedom of pagans. Again, it is not necessarily Hylean's view on abortion, just a general statement saying what some pagans believe.
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