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    (Original post by betaglucowhat)
    And the law did not prohibit gay people from getting married because they were gay, it stopped any two people of the same sex from getting married whether they were gay or straight. Gay people were still free to marry people of the opposite sex and straight people could not marry people of the same sex.

    Note that this is an actual argument used by bigots to defend gay marriage bans as nondiscriminatory, and the same argument people are using in this thread to support discriminatory business practices.

    If a blanket prohibition or action that applies to everyone only really affects a subset of the population that shares a protected character then it is discriminatory.
    But the issue is not one of refusing a service based on sexual orientation. It's not comparable. The issue is simply one of political beleifs. They discriminated against the political beleifs of that person, not because of their sexuality. Is that illegal? Perhaps, but that's where the debate lies.
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    We're talking about fundamental human freedoms here. I don't care if gay people are offended by the bakery's decision. Our basic freedoms are far more important. Let people decide what they want to sell.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    But same-sex marriage is also illegal in Northern Ireland, where the cake shop is located. Surely if it had been decided legally that banning same-sex marriage was discriminatory, the law would have to be changed there to allow same-sex marriage?
    What is boils down to is that the state doesn't follow the rules it forces everyone else to. Quite regularly, courts will tell it something is wrong and are just ignored, because they don't have the power to really do anything about it - one example being prisoner's voting rights, where it's been ruled that the blanket ban is a vagrant breach of human rights law but Parliament flat-out refuses to do anything. The marriage situation in NI is similar - if I were to set up a service and then say it wasn't available to gay couples it'd clearly be illegal, but there is no-one to tell the Assembly they have to legalise it (barring the Westminster government which isn't inclined to either).
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    Seems nonsensical to refuse to make the cake.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    We're talking about fundamental human freedoms here. I don't care if gay people are offended by the bakery's decision. Our basic freedoms are far more important. Let people decide what they want to sell.

    Absolutely. I don't want no blacks in my bakery, don't tell me otherwise or your infringing on my freedom.

    There is no freedom to discriminate on colour, race, gender or sexual orientation in this country, and rightly so.
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    Absolutely. I don't want no blacks in my bakery, don't tell me otherwise or your infringing on my freedom.

    There is no freedom to discriminate on colour, race, gender or sexual orientation in this country, and rightly so.
    Relevance fail. Try again with an analogy which actually makes sense. Where in the story does it say gay people were refused service because they were gay?
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    Relevance fail. Try again with an analogy which actually makes sense. Where in the story does it say gay people were refused service because they were gay?
    I'll try and fix the analogy for him..

    "I don't want to bake a Martin Luther King cake because I hate the fact black people are considered equals."
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    (Original post by HappyHylian)
    I'll try and fix the analogy for him..

    "I don't want to bake a Martin Luther King cake because I hate the fact black people are considered equals."
    So what you're saying is the bakery would refuse to sell cakes with gay icons on? And there was me thinking the thread was about activism and political messages.
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    So what you're saying is the bakery would refuse to sell cakes with gay icons on? And there was me thinking the thread was about activism and political messages.
    Martin Luther King promoted equal civil rights for black people, against the racist status quo. This message promotes equal marriage rights for gay people, against the homophobic status quo.
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    (Original post by HappyHylian)
    I'll try and fix the analogy for him..

    "I don't want to bake a Martin Luther King cake because I hate the fact black people are considered equals."
    If a business doesn't want to serve a person for whatever reason that is their right. If that reason happens to be their race then so be it.

    I wouldn't purchase anything from a business that refused to serve black people and neither would millions of others. The punishment of their profits going down the sinkhole is sufficient, there is no need to criminalise them as drawing the line with this kind of thing is difficult.

    Look at the Montgomery bus boycott. Those participating in it didn't need anti-discrimination laws to express their revulsion at the bus company's racism and take action against it. They nearly bankrupted the bus company; that's a pretty big punishment I think - and not a jot of state intervention in sight.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    If a business doesn't want to serve a person for whatever reason that is their right. If that reason happens to be their race then so be it.
    Wrong.

    Simply untrue

    F
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    We're talking about fundamental human freedoms here. I don't care if gay people are offended by the bakery's decision. Our basic freedoms are far more important. Let people decide what they want to sell.
    You do not have a human right that allows you to be a bigoted idiot

    In fact human rights are there to protect us from bigoted idiots
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Wrong.

    Simply untrue

    F
    That's not an argument.

    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    You do not have a human right that allows you to be a bigoted idiot

    In fact human rights are there to protect us from bigoted idiots
    Freedom of speech is a human right, as the freedom of a business to choose what it sells and who it sells to.

    As you conveniently chose to ignore in my above post, a business that refuses to serve black people would be bankrupt within months. I wouldn't use their services and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

    Just like the Montgomery bus boycott, the destruction of racist businesses can be achieved without state intervention and without infringing on anyone's freedoms.

    Gay people aren't going to use the bakery discussed in this thread after this incident and many straight people will choose not to as well. That is the business's punishment. It isn't the state's responsibility to decide what is and isn't offensive, it is for free people to decide. If people choose not to use this bakery as a result of their homophobia then that is freedom in action. I don't want my taxes used on forcing businesses to provide products they don't want to, even if their motivation for not providing said products is homophobia.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    That's not an argument.
    .
    That's right there is no argument because you are simply wrong.

    If you want to argue how wrong you are OK

    You are VERY WRONG so wrong that it's almost like you don't have a clue what you are talking about
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    That's right there is no argument because you are simply wrong.

    If you want to argue how wrong you are OK

    You are VERY WRONG so wrong that it's almost like you don't have a clue what you are talking about
    A shame TSR removed the neg rep button.

    You refusal to engage in debate or even consider any of my points demonstrates your immaturity and incapacity to critically assess alternative points of view.

    The aim of every society should be to maximise liberty. It's possible to acknowledge the repellent ignorance of racism and homophobia while simultaneously acknowledging that free people can sort these problems out for themselves without the state wading its way in.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    A shame TSR removed the neg rep button.

    You refusal to engage in debate or even consider any of my points demonstrates your immaturity and incapacity to critically assess alternative points of view.

    The aim of every society should be to maximise liberty. It's possible to acknowledge the repellent ignorance of racism and homophobia while simultaneously acknowledging that free people can sort these problems out for themselves without the state wading its way in.
    There is no debate to have

    you are wrong

    your argument is wrong

    society has already had this discussion hence we have the laws we do have.

    you can be a bigoted numpty as much as you like but you can't use this as an excuse to refuse someone service this is called discrimination and is against the law in the UK

    If you don't like it tough the majority of us do like it this way and we aren't going to change it for a few late arrivals to the discussion.

    you see you're coming to this 'debate' rather late and it's not one we are going to have for every bigot who thinks the UK should simply roll over and accept their bigotry for whatever reason
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    There is no debate to have

    you are wrong

    your argument is wrong

    society has already had this discussion hence we have the laws we do have.

    you can be a bigoted numpty as much as you like but you can't use this as an excuse to refuse someone service this is called discrimination and is against the law in the UK

    If you don't like it tough the majority of us do like it this way and we aren't going to change it for a few late arrivals to the discussion.

    you see you're coming to this 'debate' rather late and it's not one we are going to have for every bigot who thinks the UK should simply roll over and accept their bigotry for whatever reason
    Out of interest do you think the bakery broke the law?
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Out of interest do you think the bakery broke the law?
    Yes I do

    Section 14 of the Equality Act

    Denial of goods and services

    (1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a combination of two relevant protected characteristics, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.

    (2)The relevant protected characteristics are—

    (a)age;

    (b)disability;

    (c)gender reassignment;

    (d)race

    (e)religion or belief;

    (f)sex;

    (g)sexual orientation.

    So in this case

    A (the bakery) treats B (Pro Gay Message) less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.

    You see the bakery does not get to decide what message it finds acceptable nor can it discriminate because it finds a pro gay message unacceptable.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    There is no debate to have

    you are wrong

    your argument is wrong

    society has already had this discussion hence we have the laws we do have.

    you can be a bigoted numpty as much as you like but you can't use this as an excuse to refuse someone service this is called discrimination and is against the law in the UK

    If you don't like it tough the majority of us do like it this way and we aren't going to change it for a few late arrivals to the discussion.

    you see you're coming to this 'debate' rather late and it's not one we are going to have for every bigot who thinks the UK should simply roll over and accept their bigotry for whatever reason
    There is little point replying to you any further as you are unable to comprehend even the most basic aspects of debating. Saying "YOU ARE WRONG!!!111!!!!" over and over again is not, and never will be, an argument.

    If I'm so badly wrong, would you be able to point out some reasons why? If I'm as really terribly wrong as you say I am then you should be able to find some.

    You are the one who is wrong here. Ignoring the fact that you are unable to debate, you are also completely misrepresenting my position. I haven't once stated that we should accept bigotry. I've made my support for the Montgomery bus boycott very clear. Would you say that boycott was about the "acceptance of bigotry"? If you don't know, let me give you a history lesson, it sure as hell wasn't.

    There is a difference between finding something unacceptable and banning it. There are plenty of things that we all find unacceptable. But when these things are nothing more than speech, then banning them is not the way to go. You lose your moral high ground.

    What you propose is no different to what those who you claim to despise propose. Fascists want to stop you from having freedom of speech - which is exactly what you propose too.

    Finally, "society" doesn't decide anything. Free people make decisions.
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    (Original post by #Ridwan)
    There is little point replying to you any further
    Yet you did and I'll ignore it

    The truth is you want to allow bigotry and discrimination

    Our society does not

    Better you find a society that allows you to discriminate as you'll be unhappy in ours at it does not
 
 
 
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