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Is anyone going to protest for Palestine?! (In London or Birmingham) Watch

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    (Original post by Observatory)
    So what? There are "immigrant settlements" in Britain, too. Doesn't sound so neutral a description when put like that, does it?
    On land which is theirs or on land which is not theirs?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    On land which is theirs or on land which is not theirs?
    If they are citizens, the former, and if not, the latter.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    If they are citizens, the former, and if not, the latter.
    So you are in support of settlement buildings in the WB?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    As I indicated before, this is just an emotional attachment to their irredentist nationalism. Personally I think it is bizarre, almost depraved, to be a nationalist for someone else's country. Nationalism is a mental disease, and while it can be excused in those who were infected in the womb, it's less excusable to deliberately infect oneself.

    The question, to my mind, is would the lives of Palestinians be worse if they became citizens of Israel, or if they became citizens of Egypt or Jordan, or if they accepted coexistence with Israel within their current borders? And I see no possible answer to that other than no. Alternatively, can they actually defeat Israel and impose their own settlement? Again, no. So their current policy is irrationally self-destructive.
    I don't understand with what's wrong with Palestinians having an attachment to their national patriotism. They were once happy and now made refugees, I think it's understandable for them to want there land, and more importantly their human rights, back.

    Palestine isn't really valued by other major superpowers who could support them, and humanitarian concerns are crushed by Israel who controls America's financial leash. Maybe the only way for peace is for Palestine to give in, which would be an oblivious injustice. It's just upsetting that people are continuing to die over this conflict that has gone on for far too long.
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    You're a total liar

    1947 the UN offers both sides a two state solution with Jerusalem administrated by the UN for Christians, Jews and Muslims

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_..._for_Palestine

    The Israeli side accepts this offer

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Palestine#Jews

    The Arab side rejects it and declares war on the pro-Israel camp

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...alestine#Arabs


    This war happens

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2...tory_Palestine

    Israel manages to win and secures its borders, yet somehow the historically ignorant think Israel is the oppressor and Arabs are the victims
    Why would the the Arabs accept a sudden new nation of European immigrants springing up in their lands?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The British government has the power to seize my home and if it chose to do so I would be forced to comply. It's very unlikely I would retaliate by planting a bomb on a school bus or by firing a rocket in the vague direction of Whitehall. The reason is that the British government could do me much more damage if it chose, and I have no actual ability to defeat it.

    Now it seems to me that Palestinians have three reasonable options that would allow them to live in peace: first, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for citizenship of Israel; second, accept their territories becoming part of Israel in exchange for organised resettlement in Egypt and Jordan; third, becoming two independent states with their current de-facto controlled territory as their accepted permanent borders.

    None of these happen, ultimately, because Palestinians prefer to maintain their irredentism claims than to live quite, safe, and productive lives in peace. And the root cause of this is ethno-religious fanaticism.
    Why has Israel accelerated the building of illegal settlements and why is it an apartheid state?

    As you're so for the UN, do you reckon Israel should be sanctioned by it for breaking over 160 UN resolutions?

    It is fairly obvious that none of the pro-Israelis on here have the faintest clue as to what is happening.

    This whole thing began with the murder of the 3 Israeli teenagers- the Israelis immediately blamed Hamas, killed 8 Palestinians and arrested hundreds more including children. They offered no proof of Hamas's involvement.

    Now that's justice

    Oh no wait, it is a false flag operation just like many in the past.
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    (Original post by DeemzBeamz)
    ok so you might aswell support the oppressor considering you're neutral. "Both sides are as bad as each other"

    Remind me when did palestinians occupy israelis
    When did we impose curfews as collective punishment
    When di we conduct night raids and terrorise childrne once they wake up
    When did we impose a siege as collective punishment
    When did we wipe out entire extended families
    When did we steal land by claiming it's going to be confiscated
    When did we build illegal settlements
    When did we put kids under administrative detentions illegally, children as young as 3
    When did we plant checkpoints through every israeli city even in the centre
    When did we have settlers in Israel to burn olives trees and terrorise farmers and children walking by
    When did we build seperation roads

    You're irrelevant if you're going to sit by and ignore these things.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I could write an equally long list about atrocities Palestinians have committed. What the Israeli government is doing is very, very bad - don't for a moment think that I'm supporting the actions of Israel. However, as a rational person - and someone who has actually been to the region and interacted with people affected - I think it's extremely unfair to push the entire of the blame on Israel.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So you are in support of settlement buildings in the WB?
    To the extent I favour immigration to any country, yes. Do you think it should be illegal for non-whites or non-Christians to settle in the UK?
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    (Original post by Diamante06)
    I don't understand with what's wrong with Palestinians having an attachment to their national patriotism. They were once happy and now made refugees, I think it's understandable for them to want there land, and more importantly their human rights, back.
    The thrust of my post is that it is weird for you, a presumably non-Palestinian, to strongly take their side. The Israelis also believe they are reasserting their ancient land claims, rights, etc. Is their claim stronger? It's really just a matter of opinion.

    The thing wrong with Palestinians asserting irredentist land claims is that it makes their quality of life far worse with no prospect of actual victory. This suggests that they're more interested in ethno-religious pride than improving their quality of life.

    Palestine isn't really valued by other major superpowers who could support them, and humanitarian concerns are crushed by Israel who controls America's financial leash. Maybe the only way for peace is for Palestine to give in, which would be an oblivious injustice. It's just upsetting that people are continuing to die over this conflict that has gone on for far too long.
    I think you've descended into conspiracy theories with this remark, but I agree entirely with the final sentence. Why, then, do you support continued fighting over land?
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Why has Israel accelerated the building of illegal settlements and why is it an apartheid state?

    As you're so for the UN, do you reckon Israel should be sanctioned by it for breaking over 160 UN resolutions?

    It is fairly obvious that none of the pro-Israelis on here have the faintest clue as to what is happening.

    This whole thing began with the murder of the 3 Israeli teenagers- the Israelis immediately blamed Hamas, killed 8 Palestinians and arrested hundreds more including children. They offered no proof of Hamas's involvement.

    Now that's justice

    Oh no wait, it is a false flag operation just like many in the past.
    I'm not sure you read anything I wrote. I am in favour of formalising sovereignty in this area, and holding whoever gets it to the standards of other sovereigns. It doesn't have to be Israel although that is one option; not necessarily the best, but it might be. I do not care about whose nationalist organ is larger nor particularly about the UN.
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    no, just the muslims
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    To the extent I favour immigration to any country, yes. Do you think it should be illegal for non-whites or non-Christians to settle in the UK?
    But they are building on a land which they have no ownership of? How does that work?

    It's like if Scotland gains independence and then a random Scotsman comes and builds his house in England, land which he has not purchased. I suppose you'll allow him and most of the Scots to do this?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The thrust of my post is that it is weird for you, a presumably non-Palestinian, to strongly take their side. The Israelis also believe they are reasserting their ancient land claims, rights, etc. Is their claim stronger?
    Looking at both sides from an outsiders perceptive, and though I understand Israel wanting it's own homeland I feel that it has come with a price, and negatively affected Palestine.

    (Original post by Observatory)
    The thing wrong with Palestinians asserting irredentist land claims is that it makes their quality of life far worse with no prospect of actual victory. This suggests that they're more interested in ethno-religious pride than improving their quality of life.
    Yes I know what you're saying but just try to understand how hard it would be for them to give up these claims they feel so strongly about.
    With their rights being seized and the constant intimidation, it's not hard to understand that Palestinians are united with these claims.

    (Original post by Observatory)
    I think you've descended into conspiracy theories with this remark, but I agree entirely with the final sentence. Why, then, do you support continued fighting over land?
    I don't support any type of fighting where civilians will be killed. I, like any other rational being, would want Palestine and Israel to resolve the conflict peacefully. As this has been attempted and failed, they shouldn't continue to resort in violence but should always look at ways through peaceful means. In order for a ceasefire and resolvent of the issue, one will have to compromise and with the lack of support Palestine has unfortunately, I think we all know which one.
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    no, just the muslims
    It's not just Muslims going, non-Muslims are attending as well. It isn't a matter of religion, but a humanitarian issue.
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    no, just the muslims
    I'm a christian palestinian and my entire family are going...
    This isn't about religion, and fellow muslims should never make it out to seem like that. Christian palestinians, samaritans and druze suffer too and you need to realise that, it's not just palestinian muslims under occupation.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    Im going on saturday, there will be a march from downing st to israeli embassy, prolly 20k+ ppl


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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    But they are building on a land which they have no ownership of? How does that work?

    It's like if Scotland gains independence and then a random Scotsman comes and builds his house in England, land which he has not purchased. I suppose you'll allow him and most of the Scots to do this?
    That's not clear. Britain is a state, and operates a land registry. Who owns land in Palestine? There's no state there, no effective law enforcement, so no one knows. While I suspect the real reason Palestinians oppose these Israeli settlements is ethno-religious chauvinism, the proximal cause of the problems they create is the ambiguous legal situation in Palestine.
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    will there be a protest in derby?
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    is there going to be a protest in derby? ... anyone going... apparently is on the 19th of July 2014 (tommorrow) in town ( intu derby) is anyone going?
 
 
 
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