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Congratulations to the Greek left! The movement against austerity.... watch

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    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...inancing-deal/

    Well so much for that.

    I do genuinely sympathise somewhat for the Greeks, they shouldnt have been allowed into the EU in the first place. However, if they were to leave the affects would be catastrophic- for them.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Yes they are, it's called international law. What we did was illegal under rules and regulations by the UN, ICC and the world court among others.
    These organisations are established by agreement between states (the ICC didn't exist at the time, btw); they don't circumscribe sovereignty. The US and UK may - or may not - have violated the UN Charter, but the US and UK have a right to violate the UN Charter or any other treaty.

    I'm a little confused, you seem to be arguing that property rights are absolute in the first half of your paragraph and then that they are racist and inapplicable in the second. The natural resources of Iran belong to Iran, if they don't then how did the Persians have the authority to licence them to the West for a pittance in the first place?
    I don't see the contradiction. Having licensed the mineral rights they cannot simply tear up the agreement whenever they feel like it, just as my landlord cannot simply repossess my flat with no notice. Moreover the Iranian government never owned the AIOC or its capital investments, including both the prospecting information and the extraction equipment it imported to the country.

    There is no difference here between what Iran did and the UK simply deciding to nationalise the Toyota plant in Derbyshire because we don't like the Japanese.

    For the time and place he is from he certainly is a secular messiah. He embodied a number of values that are still absent in a huge number of Arab states today, the same values that are held in such high regard in the West. How many countries in the region would benefit from a leader who fought for democracy, secularism, the rights of women and minorities and so on today?
    In what sense did he fight for democracy? He used democratic processes to take power; so did Hitler. He was perfectly happy to rewrite the constitution to grant himself unlimited executive powers and declare a rolling state of emergency. He acted like a banana republic El Presidente; I see no commitment to democracy that cannot be equally well explained by self-interest.

    Now sure he was secular, a nationalist, and a socialist, rather than an Islamist. But if you think Islamism was dominant in the Middle East in 1950 or 1960 your view is anachronistic. Most of the Middle East was ruled by authoritarian monarchies and the opposition parties were mostly secular Arab nationalists. Saddam Hussein was a secular ruler who permitted women to serve in the army. The original PLO under Arafat had much more to say about Marx than Muhammed. Mosaddegh was an unexceptional third world demagogue.

    The conflict with the UK came as a result of massive socio-economic problems in his country, and his countries greatest assest had been monopolised by a hostile foreign power who reaped all the rewards from it, they didn't even meet the peicemeal concessions that they had agreed to most of the time. There was no real disagreement with the US at first, as they were reasonable enough to negotiate with them. The UK then proceed to blockade them and spent a good deal of time twisting the US' arm to overthrow him for us.
    Iran wasn't poor because of the AIOC; the AOIC was the only successful part of Iran precisely because it wasn't built or run by Iranians. They did not reap the rewards because they didn't put in any of the knowledge or expertise to make it work, and they didn't have any demand for the finished product. Iran's greatest asset, like that of all countries, was its people. Instead of employing them effectively to create prosperity, by adopting free markets, Mosaddegh tried to grab a state concession that he could use to pay supporters and the army without having to raise taxes. Putin is doing the same thing in Russia today. But unlike Putin, Mosaddegh was a poor strategist. He picked a fight with actors who were much stronger than him and had no interest in letting him win.
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    Political Ambassador
    Can everyone stay on topic. This thread is to discuss Greece, if you wish to discuss another subject then please start a new thread.
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    Tsipras has said today that he is expecting a final political solution on Greece by Thursday at the EU Summit meeting.Btw this reparations issue is really picking up in Greece.The Greek media are all over it.
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    Tsipras has said today that he is expecting a final political solution on Greece by Thursday at the EU Summit meeting.Btw this reparations issue is really picking up in Greece.The Greek media are all over it.
    I'd be heavily insulted if i were German.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'd be heavily insulted if i were German.
    Well tough

    It's just politics.Germany tries to dictate a model of austerity in Greece and Greece reacts by hitting Germany where it really hurts.I dont see why German people have to take it personally.In fact the UK,France and all the countries which do not want a Pan-German EU should be on Greece's side.
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    Greece only have two real options. Either leave the Euro and default or introduce another currency to co-exist alongside the Euro.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Greece only have two real options. Either leave the Euro and default or introduce another currency to co-exist alongside the Euro.
    Or fight for a debt write off like Germany had its own debt written off in 1953.
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    Or fight for a debt write off like Germany had its own debt written off in 1953.
    Not likely to happen.

    German debt wrote off was heavily linked to pre WW2 debt and legacy debt from the treaty of Versailles.

    Greece acted like a spoilt kid with their parents credit card.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    .

    Greece acted like a spoilt kid with their parents credit card.
    This is crappy logic which infers that the Greek people have to suffer for the bs corrupt politicians all over EU did.Germany and the likes should not have lent Greece the money in the first place.You dont go lending money to someone who you know cant pay u back.

    The Greek people have had it with austerity and the humanitarian crisis is currently at its height in Greece.The bs logic that uses Greek people as the scapegoat for a failed policy is long dead.Either Germany respects the democratic process in Greece or SYRIZA goes nuclear and we ll see who has to loose more.
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    This is crappy logic which infers that the Greek people have to suffer for the bs corrupt politicians all over EU did.Germany and the likes should not have lent Greece the money in the first place.You dont go lending money to someone who you know cant pay u back.

    The Greek people have had it with austerity and the humanitarian crisis is currently at its height in Greece.The bs logic that uses Greek people as the scapegoat for a failed policy is long dead.Either Germany respects the democratic process in Greece or SYRIZA goes nuclear and we ll see who has to loose more.
    The Greek people benefited from those lies.

    Greece isn't having a humanitarian crisis, it's having a wake up call.

    Germany will observe the democratic process in Greece. But alas, you can't go around claiming 'democracy' to cancel debt by voting in a political party that blackmails.

    Syriza has the potential to do more damage to the Greek electorate than it'll improve.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)

    Greece isn't having a humanitarian crisis, it's having a wake up call.


    Oh please spare me the lecture on what is going on in my country.30% unemployment, 50% of the general population below the poverty line 25% reduction of living standards, 5000 suicides and majority of ppl in social exclusion and all that happening after 2010.

    Germany will observe jack sh*t. It cares only through f*cked up blackmails to insure a failed policy by suffocating the Greek people.So hell yeah Greece has all the right to strike back with the same medicine.
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    Oh please spare me the lecture on what is going on in my country.30% unemployment, 50% of the general population below the poverty line 25% reduction of living standards, 5000 suicides and majority of ppl in social exclusion and all that happening after 2010.

    Germany will observe jack sh*t. It cares only through f*cked up blackmails to insure a failed policy by suffocating the Greek people.So hell yeah Greece has all the right to strike back with the same medicine.
    And this everybody is what happens when you live beyond your means on credit.

    Looks like Greece can either default or leave the €.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)

    leave the €.
    yep,by bringing down the rest of the eurozone as we leave
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    yep,by bringing down the rest of the eurozone as we leave
    Greeces economy makes up a tiny tiny fraction of the eurozone.

    A Greek exit would more than likely stabilise the eurozone after a short term blip.
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    yep,by bringing down the rest of the eurozone as we leave
    You won't. The Euro can now absorb anything less than a 750bn default.

    You'd annoy people though and increase insitbility.
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    Ok let's risk it then.Until then SYRIZA will have politicised the issue so much that it will cause both political and financial crisis in the Eurozone and globally.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Oh, sorry! I checked to see if there was one, obviously not hard enough. :blush:



    Very true. :yep: It's really only because it was necessary in order to sell BMWs that Germany dragooned (or kindly offered, depending on which way you look at it) the Euro to the Southern European economies and particularly to marginal Greece. Now they are in it though, the capital elites need to observe at least some decorum, it wouldn't be polite to send in the tanks just yet.
    No extended deadlines for the work shy buggers to repay their debt will sufice
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    (Original post by Psych34)
    Ok let's risk it then.Until then SYRIZA will have politicised the issue so much that it will cause both political and financial crisis in the Eurozone and globally.
    The Greek problem isn't the main issue. It is/was Italy, Spain and Portugal.

    Greece is acting like a petulant child at the movement huffing and puffing.

    I'm sensing it'll shortly be made a lesson of i. Order to ensure the larger struggling economies tow the line.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    And this everybody is what happens when you live beyond your means on credit.

    Looks like Greece can either default or leave the €.
    The euro crisis explained

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

    MOD WARNING: says ****, so some precious little souls may wish to block their ears
 
 
 
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