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Rape is now guilty before proven innocent. watch

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    (Original post by Wade-)
    No that isn't what happened, how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt someone was too drunk to consent especially considering she didn't actually drink much.
    Well, the jury was clearly directed that this finding was a necessary precondition to conviction and they must have thought the prosecution managed it.

    The fact that they saw her on CCTV, that every independent witness - i.e. everyone who didn't want to stick their penis in her - described her as extremely drunk, and that pissing herself while unconscious didn't wake her up probably all contributed to that. Even the Evans team now accept that she was not lying about being too drunk to remember a thing about what happened.

    If you'd been on the jury, what would you have said to try and convince the other eleven members that they were wrong? Or are you one of the so-called MRA who think it's their duty to acquit in cases of rape, no matter what the evidence?
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    (Original post by Wade-)
    Haha your legal knowledge is very bad. If that was that case how would anyone ever be found guilty of rape? Their defence would simply tell them to keep their mouth shut and unless it was recorded there would be no evidence that the complainant didn't consent.

    In real life the complainant would say she didn't consent and the defendant would have to attempt to convince a jury that she had, the judge would direct the jury to find the defendant guilty unless he could reasonably convince them that the complainant had consented.



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    False. The guidelines haven't changed for the judge. The guidelines have changed for the prosecution and police investigators, and not much at that. Lack of knowledge indeed.

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    (Original post by Wade-)
    Exactly my point, he had to prove his belief of her consent was reasonable, the prosecution wasn't forced to prove she hadn't consented
    They showed that she was not in a position to consent, the CCTV is fairly clear on this. There is a grey line where consent is concerned, but this was well over that.
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    (Original post by Wade-)
    How would you ever prove a woman didn't consent? No ones going to admit that. I really don't know why you're arguing when you clearly aren't legally educated.

    If you're never found guilty of something you can't be addressed as though you are. If you're not found guilty of rape then you can't be called a rapist and thus the woman was never raped, legally speaking.


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    Yes but a conviction is simply there to state someone is a rapist. Simply being unable to prove it does not mean no rape occurred as you yourself stated.

    That's why if it's a false claim the women herself can be prosecuted, if it's simply a case of unable to get enough evidence she will not.
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    Women are too quick to pull out the rape card! Soon men will need to start giving out consent forms


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    (Original post by Jennywbu)
    I know for a fact it happened because I found the condom the next day, my point is that I was too ashamed to tell the police this, because of the way society reacts to rape victims. I wouldn't even call this rape. I didn't open up about this to the police for a while, all because I was worried about what my family/friends would think of me.

    I know the implications of pressing charges, but I did't even want to mention the sexual side of the crime. He stole my phone and debit card, theft was all I wanted him to go down for, and even that hasn't happened. The police pushed for me to press charges for sexual assault because they have seen this type of criminal so many times, taking advantage of drunk women on the seafront in Brighton, taking them home, sleeping with them and then stealing their belongings, why should he be able to do this to more young girls? In hindsight, I should have allowed them to examine me, but I felt pure shame and guilt and wanted to pretend it didn't happen, then I asked myself WHY.

    I know its incredibly hard to prove it either way now, because I refused to be examined the next day, all because I was too ashamed, THAT is what needs to change! Women/Men should NEVER be made to feel like they are under scrutiny when something like this happens.

    They wanted to examine me, EVERYWHERE, take my clothes, my underwear, cordon off my bedroom, go through EVERYTHING and I was scared and panicked and said no. THAT is what needs to change.
    I am alive to the emotional impact of rape and why a forensic examination of your body and bedroom would feel like being raped again, but surely you can see that this is the only, or at least the only reliable, way the police can hope to gather evidence to prosecute the crime, particularly in the absence of witnesses. While again I understand why it feels like scrutiny, surely you are not really the one being held under suspicion, it's just that we cannot escape from the fact that the evidence is on your body and in your bedroom.

    I don't think witness and CCTV evidence, even if you were passing out in the street, could ever be enough to convict, as even with all the signposts pointing that way there is no actual way to prove sexual contact happened if you do not provide them with at least access to your room to check for traces of semen. As you will no doubt have turned over in your mind, there isn't really any way round this. The police could put out a witness appeal and even plaster his face all over the newspapers but a conviction would still be beyond the reach of the justice system. I expect it was and would have been manifest to everyone you spoke to that you had been raped but that cannot be evidence.

    I would hope they would take as compassionate, humanistic and tactful an attitude as possible to evidence gathering in your room, acceding to your requests and psychological needs, rather than men in white coats swooping down and doing the whole CSI. However the police are overworked and underfunded, I imagine often without access to the proper training and psychiatrists. Is improving this aspect of it something that you would consider to be a way forward in collecting the requisite evidence while reducing the expected and actual psychological harm done as much as possible?

    Secondly, do you think it is possible to reduce, for example through public education that humanises rape victims, the shame and anxiety about being judged women feel after they have been raped? I am thinking of the campaigns which were successful in reducing the stigma around HIV in the 1980s which also made sufferers feel like pariahs. The thing is, I cannot conceive of any person except for a sociopath who would actually blame a woman for her own rape, much less her own family and friends, neither judge her for having been drunk on a night out, so happily I don't think your feelings of shame and expectations of being judged are really borne out by the reality.

    I know if it were me the very last thing I would want to do would be go to a dingy police station and relive the whole thing again, much less undergo examinations, no matter how much tea and biscuits they gave me. I would bury it nice and deep and try to pretend it never happened until it came out in bursts of aggression, depression or plain old self-hatred. I'm not sure this is due to society's view of rape at all, I think it's because people need to be immensely brave to even properly acknowledge what happened, let alone spend months dragging it through sordid, dispassionate bureaucratic monoliths like the police and the courts.

    I hope I have not been tactless or triggering or asked any uncomfortable questions in responding to your post, and I hope you have been able to find professional help, for example at your university.
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    (Original post by Wade-)
    how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt someone was too drunk to consent especially considering she didn't actually drink much.
    You put the evidence before a jury and you ask them to reach a conclusion.

    You are seeking to impose a standard far beyond that which a jury is asked to apply.

    If you take theft, a jury is asked to decide if the accused:-


    dishonestly
    appropriated property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.



    As you can see a jury is asked in every theft case to determine beyond reasonable doubt whether the defendant was acting honestly or dishonestly, which is a question about the accused's state of mind. The jury is also asked to determine beyond reasonable doubt whether the accused's intention was to deprive the owner of the item permanently or only temporarily (as with a joyrider taking a car). The accused's intention is also something happening inside a defendant's head.

    Juries are asked to determine these questions beyond reasonable doubt every day of the week.

    Other offences have equally difficult questions. Did the defendant intend to kill or inflict really serious bodily harm (murder) or inflict some bodily harm (manslaughter)?

    However due to your opinion that rape should be impossible to prosecute where consent is in issue, you are saying that it is impossible to determine whether someone is too drunk to consent.
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    (Original post by Boowood9)
    Women are too quick to pull out the rape card! Soon men will need to start giving out consent forms
    Anyone who thinks this is unlikely to need one...
 
 
 
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