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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    There are many elements of scientific knowledge that render the existence of gods less likely, in that their existence is claimed by the religious to account for many things which scientific study has proved not to be that case. These refuted claims are clearly an attempt to justify the existence of deities and, taken together, the fact that deities are not necessary for the occurrences which the religious claim they are, strongly indicates that the religious are part of a conspiracy to get people to believe in deities' existence.

    Examples are the story of the flood, the Islamic claim that man was created from clay or that we are all descended from Adam and Eve, and the attribution of thunder and lighting to the anger of the gods. There was no worldwide flood, with the animals all saved by a single family in a single vessel; man was not created from clay; we are not all descended from two humans who lived at the same time; and lightning is caused by perfectly well understood natural phenomena, not angry gods.
    So you would argue that because there was no global flood this makes the Christian God less likely?

    This seems to assume that Jewish and subsequent christian perspectives on said chapter were linear? It was always said Noah was real, it was always said that 2 animals of each species were gathered etc and then with scientific discovery they were proved wrong! Except history shows the opposite. Well before modern science was around or any method could concretely put doubt on the story, people used the story in non literal senses. It was theology.

    If this is true, it cannot be said that 'their existence is claimed by the religious to account for many things that scientific study has proved not to be the case'. Not in any sense that holds weight anyway.

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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    So you would argue that because there was no global flood this makes the Christian God less likely?

    This seems to assume that Jewish and subsequent christian perspectives on said chapter were linear? It was always said Noah was real, it was always said that 2 animals of each species were gathered etc and then with scientific discovery they were proved wrong! Except history shows the opposite. Well before modern science was around or any method could concretely put doubt on the story, people used the story in non literal senses. It was theology.

    If this is true, it cannot be said that 'their existence is claimed by the religious to account for many things that scientific study has proved not to be the case'. Not in any sense that holds weight anyway.

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    Already the fact that bible speaks about male and female of each species were gathered in ark demonstrates bad understanding of biology, and that bible is with very big propability fairy tale and nothing more; there are countlless species with no concept of male and female. Also with more than 8 million different species currenlty recorded no way that they managed to gather them all to ark.
    Sure god, all knowing creature knows that? Still book that is claimed ro be "his word" is so badly wrong with numbers.

    Another point where bible was clearly wrong is how humans came to be, there is evidence for evolution but no evidence for creation.

    Also bible claims earth is 6000 years old. Again god has issue with numbers.

    And how did Mary's gamete get fertilized without another gamete? Because god is not an explanation.

    Bible has these things majorly off, so why should we believe it would be any more correct with its core claim about gods existance when so many other things have been shown to be false? There is not a single piece of evidence for bible, but plenty against.
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    (Original post by hoping4Astars)
    Atheists,
    Please repent of your sins and receive the free gift of salvation from your Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Preaching, eh? I thought the time for free gifts was in December, when another fictional character, Santa Claus, will hand them out to children, making good use of the flue network. Or am I confused?
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Is this meant to be a troll post? You cannot seriously expect a post of this kind to sway anyone -- from experience, I'd say you're throwing out bait to get people riled up.
    The words 'free gift' made me chuckle on the inside.
    I just imagined Jesus as some kind of sales person trying to sell something by promising salvation.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    The words 'free gift' made me chuckle on the inside.
    I just imagined Jesus as some kind of sales person trying to sell something by promising salvation.
    I imagined one of those free toys that you used to sometimes get in cereal boxes as a kid. xD
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I imagined one of those free toys that you used to sometimes get in cereal boxes as a kid. xD
    Free salvation with every box

    I feel we could be on to something here...
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    When you spout such nonsense as



    I don't think anyone could reasonably see where you are coming from. You are basically saying that you cannot rationally think about the origins of life, realise you don't know the answer and accept that you don't know, without making up the existence of something to explain the mystery and give you comfort.

    I'm a bit disappointed about the comment in bold. I thought you were all looking for the truth, with or without a god involved. This sounds a bit like an "I give up" statement... as though, bc science can't answer your question, you decide that there is no answer at all. Where are your attempts to understand the universe from a different angle?

    Also, when you talk about "giving comfort", I can totally see where you're coming from - looking at all the ancient tribes etc., that each created a god/multiple gods - however the unique thing about Christianity is that, including Judaism (which involves the same God, so is the same for the sake of this argument), it is a religion that dates way back to before 2000BCE. This is a long time before even the Greek gods were invented. The ancient Greek gods came and went, as did many, many others besides. Even the Romans, who had so much power and influence, failed to preserve their religion (until they became Christians, some time later). However, the religion which I believe in, and which millions of others continue to have faith in to this day, still exists, throughout all of this. And now you, a bunch of modern folk who think they know better, are trying to say that such a serious and wonderful religion doesn't exist. Well, I know you will probably laugh, but the Bible predicted you, just as it predicted the Romans, long before they came into existence. And the Bible has never proved wrong! How's that for evidence?



    You now say that life is better if you believe in this adult Santa even if it does not exist because of the comfort, and don't even consider how many people are not in need of this false comfort.
    We aren't in need of God? Maybe you'd better start talking to people out there who realise their need for him. There are loads, absolutely loads of stories of people who have had their lives moulded by God, and who have been placed in the right condition, at the right time, to carry out his wish. So you say we don't need him. I can tell you one thing for sure, and this is that, even at such a personal level, we all need him. I can only pray that you will realise this some day. I hope you will. Why is it that you're all so fiery about atheism? Why are you all angry that we choose to believe in a God who has helped us so much? Is it because, deep down, something in you knows that there is a God who lives, and you're trying to resist him with a vengeance? I'm not sure, but only you can answer that question.
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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    So you would argue that because there was no global flood this makes the Christian God less likely?

    This seems to assume that Jewish and subsequent christian perspectives on said chapter were linear? It was always said Noah was real, it was always said that 2 animals of each species were gathered etc and then with scientific discovery they were proved wrong! Except history shows the opposite. Well before modern science was around or any method could concretely put doubt on the story, people used the story in non literal senses. It was theology.

    If this is true, it cannot be said that 'their existence is claimed by the religious to account for many things that scientific study has proved not to be the case'. Not in any sense that holds weight anyway.

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    Of course. The whole extraordinary concept of deities has no rational support, nor any credible evidence in its favour. religion has survived in a world where the people had no better explanation for the world around them than the fairy tales told by those that sought to control them.

    The religious have told hundreds of lies in support of these deities, but now, many years later, we have found out find out the truth about them. It doesn't exactly add credence to the other claims, does it? Particularly when those other claims are also unsupported and we know there are many men in the world, right now, who can earn a good living in entertainment by performing what appear to be miracles, but are, in fact, illusions. This undermines all the ancient stories of miracles at a stroke. If you only have proven lies as positive evidence you have nothing. You have nothing.

    The whole edifice of superstition and religion is a house built on foundations of sand, and the clear flowing stream of science and rationality is washing them away.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    We aren't in need of God? Maybe you'd better start talking to people out there who realise their need for him. There are loads, absolutely loads of stories of people who have had their lives moulded by God, and who have been placed in the right condition, at the right time, to carry out his wish. So you say we don't need him. I can tell you one thing for sure, and this is that, even at such a personal level, we all need him. I can only pray that you will realise this some day. I hope you will.
    Bold part is obviously false. There are plenty of people who don't -- the fact that some people do is not an argument in favour of the view that everyone needs a god. Unless those 'loads of stories' of people include everybody who's ever lived, the argument doesn't stand, I'm afraid.

    Why is it that you're all so fiery about atheism? Why are you all angry that we choose to believe in a God who has helped us so much? Is it because, deep down, something in you knows that there is a God who lives, and you're trying to resist him with a vengeance? I'm not sure, but only you can answer that question.
    No, we're 'fiery' about it because this is a thread about the OP not being able to tolerate 'religion bashers', who tend to be atheists. Most of the people arguing against you on this thread don't exactly spend their free time randomly professing their atheism to strangers, you know.
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    (Original post by Emilia1320)
    No, life believing in god can also be tormentive. Often while not tormentive life believing in god can be restrictive.

    I was born to Christian family, and raised as one. Even at school Christianity was taught as truth to Christian students. I always questioned everything since age of 8 thou and by the age of 12 religion was behind me for good.
    What happened before that? I was school bullied and my parents hurt me physically several times.
    What I tought with brain of 8 year old? That god hates me to punished me like this, and while I avoided sinning I always tought god is punishing me and not pleased and I will end up in hell. It was tormentive time, to never feel alright, and always be afraid, when not peers or parents then imaginary cruel man.

    At the age of 10 I heard about big bang, got interested and did a lot of reading on basic concepts of science and later, atheism. I didnt understand it all, but I understood enough to realize there was an alternative.
    While I was still bullied and my parents were fighting and yelling it was whole lot easier to think that I am not responsible for their actions. (Ie. Its not gods plan to punish me). Since then my life has turned greatly better. So yes, believing is a loss in many cases. And what comes to hell... There is no evidence of it, so I feel pretty safe to take the change. Plus, I'd always choose raw truth over false comfort.
    I am very sorry to hear your story It seems that your parents taught you about the wrong side of God, and it is natural for anyone in that circumstance to turn away. I know it is a lot easier to just shrug off the responsibility, but in fact we need to have it, and it seems that the false comfort you actually cling to is atheism. I think they didn't really teach about the forgiving side of God; he's not out there to get you, and put you in hell; he's out there to get you and put you in heaven
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    The words 'free gift' made me chuckle on the inside.
    I just imagined Jesus as some kind of sales person trying to sell something by promising salvation.
    That is exactly what he was, if he was a real man.
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    (Original post by Emilia1320)
    Already the fact that bible speaks about male and female of each species were gathered in ark demonstrates bad understanding of biology, and that bible is with very big propability fairy tale and nothing more; there are countlless species with no concept of male and female. Also with more than 8 million different species currenlty recorded no way that they managed to gather them all to ark.
    Sure god, all knowing creature knows that? Still book that is claimed ro be "his word" is so badly wrong with numbers.

    Another point where bible was clearly wrong is how humans came to be, there is evidence for evolution but no evidence for creation.

    Also bible claims earth is 6000 years old. Again god has issue with numbers.

    And how did Mary's gamete get fertilized without another gamete? Because god is not an explanation.

    Bible has these things majorly off, so why should we believe it would be any more correct with its core claim about gods existance when so many other things have been shown to be false? There is not a single piece of evidence for bible, but plenty against.
    You've ignored the post you quoted.

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Of course. The whole extraordinary concept of deities has no rational support, nor any credible evidence in its favour. religion has survived in a world where the people had no better explanation for the world around them than the fairy tales told by those that sought to control them.

    The religious have told hundreds of lies in support of these deities, but now, many years later, we have found out find out the truth about them. It doesn't exactly add credence to the other claims, does it? Particularly when those other claims are also unsupported and we know there are many men in the world, right now, who can earn a good living in entertainment by performing what appear to be miracles, but are, in fact, illusions. This undermines all the ancient stories of miracles at a stroke. If you only have proven lies as positive evidence you have nothing. You have nothing.

    The whole edifice of superstition and religion is a house built on foundations of sand, and the clear flowing stream of science and rationality is washing them away.
    I don't think you read my post.

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    That is exactly what he was, if he was a real man.
    True ^^
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be religion. It is the root of all evil.
    Lol I have 45 likes on this post and people still keep repping it weeks after I posted it. It's a curse because every once in a while when some religious person sees it, they get so angry that 45 atheists liked it that they take out all the frustration they feel towards 45 people to ME. I am such a martyr for all you atheists out there. Cheers babes
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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    I don't think you read my post.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I did. I concentrated on the literal interpretations for the simple reason that, once the religious start claiming that the scriptures are really metaphors they already know the scripture is nonsense. Only the Christian creationists and Moslems are sticking to the literal interpretations these days; they are looking increasingly out of touch and isolated, but at least they are trying to follow what the ancient leaders first brainwashed into them.

    But even those who follow scripture metaphorically are left with the question, If all the other claims are only metaphors, surely gods must be metaphors too?
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    We aren't in need of God? Maybe you'd better start talking to people out there who realise their need for him. There are loads, absolutely loads of stories of people who have had their lives moulded by God, and who have been placed in the right condition, at the right time, to carry out his wish. So you say we don't need him. I can tell you one thing for sure, and this is that, even at such a personal level, we all need him. I can only pray that you will realise this some day. I hope you will. Why is it that you're all so fiery about atheism? Why are you all angry that we choose to believe in a God who has helped us so much? Is it because, deep down, something in you knows that there is a God who lives, and you're trying to resist him with a vengeance? I'm not sure, but only you can answer that question.

    First of all, I'm not angry; you believe whatever fairy tales you choose, but don't try to make me live my life according to your superstitious beliefs.

    Secondly, all that you have written tells us far more about you and your insecurities than it does about the existence of deities.

    Thirdly, thousands of gods have been mooted across the centuries; you believe in just one more than I do. Ask yourself, how are you sure it is the right one, and why do you disbelieve in the others?
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    (Original post by JW22)
    (The rest of my response is in the quote) I'd say it's more incredible that God doesn't exist because the chance of us existing without the intervention of a deity is incredibly small, whereas with a God this is all almost determined to happen, just a different perspective i guess.

    I agree with your four options for afterlife, however the problem with it is that it doesn't consider the possibilities. The fact is God is most likely not going to exist, and if he does, it definitely won't be Christianity. Which will mean that in your Pascals Wager afterlife scenario we'll both end up exactly the same. But in life I will have more freedom and I won't be restricted by religious dogma. I guess it all depends whether you would accept the two extremes of being miserable with the truth or happy with a lie.
    Concerning what you said in the quote..
    Firstly, you are making a sweeping generalisation when you say that there is no bright side in 3rd world countries; just because the people don't have so much by way of modern comforts doesn't mean that they don't have a psychological bright side.
    Secondly, when God said "thou shalt not murder" to the Israelites, he was not telling himself what to do. It is like telling a child to cross a road only after looking left, right, left. He himself had the right to end people's lives if he wished! After all, the only reason that it's a sin is because it means ending the life of one of God's people, whom he created. A potter's son would be told off for smashing one of his father's pots, but if the potter himself wishes to smash a pot (e.g. if it is too ugly and has not turned out well), then of course he may.
    Thirdly, as I was trying to explainbefore, believing in God should not be miserable! I find myselfthinking that if you knew the happiness that comes with knowingyourself to be God's child, then you would quickly convert. We aren'tall monks and nuns, you know. We still find our ways in having fun,and the kind of enjoyment we have is much better for us (e.g. thinkabout smoking, drinking in heavy quantities etc. What do they teachyou at school? It's not good for our bodies. That's why God doesn'tpermit it: he wants only the best for us). To eradicate a commonmisconception... GOD IS NOT A KILLJOY.
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be religion. It is the root of all evil.
    If the current religious orthodoxy were eradicated, something equally devious would be invented to replace it.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I did. I concentrated on the literal interpretations for the simple reason that, once the religious start claiming that the scriptures are really metaphors they already know the scripture is nonsense. Only the Christian creationists and Moslems are sticking to the literal interpretations these days; they are looking increasingly out of touch and isolated, but at least they are trying to follow what the ancient leaders first brainwashed into them.

    But even those who follow scripture metaphorically are left with the question, If all the other claims are only metaphors, surely gods must be metaphors too?
    Aha. This is what I was waiting for.

    The point is that history does not fit your argument. Religious leaders were seeing it as non literal well before any discoveries put literal interpretations in trouble. Its not as though it was seen as literal up until the last minute, when science finally poured doubt on it. Throughout the centuries non literal interpretation was always there.

    So ultimately you have to support your claim that the literal interpretation was 'what the ancient leaders first brainwashed them into'.

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    how are you sure it is the right one, and why do you disbelieve in the others?
    See the "I'm a Muslim, ask me anything II" thread
 
 
 
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