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Are ISIS muslims? watch

  • View Poll Results: Are ISIS militants MUSLIMS?
    Yes.
    124
    42.91%
    No.
    77
    26.64%
    They are muslims. But not "true" muslims
    71
    24.57%
    Idk
    17
    5.88%

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Well, we both know it isn't even that. I understand it contains stuff copied from elsewhere, grammatical errors, and it certainly contains historical errors, scientific errors, contradictions about punishments, religious compulsion, doubts about lengths of days that aren't days, all sorts of things.
    It's said to contain those things, but upon closer examination I found these claims to be based upon misunderstanding, often due to mistranslation. I used to be an atheist. I wouldn't have become muslim if I wasn't convinced that the Quran didn't contain what you say it does.

    The quran echoes other books at times because we consider those books to have sections which originally also came from God, such as the original Mosaic texts.

    There are no grammatical errors in the quran - most of the so called errors are clear shifts in address and subject, such as the switch in surah Tahrim, where the wives of the prophet are mentioned in the female, and suddenly the address becomes masculine plural as the book addresses Muhammad's Ahlulbayt (which contains both male and female individuals and is what masculine plural is used for.) There are about 140 such instances within the book.

    The scientific errors often 'quoted' from the quran like the story of Dhulqarnain reaching a land where 'the sun set with the appearance of settling into a pool of muddy water' where it has been translated as if the Quran is saying Dhulqarnain actually saw the sun set into a muddy spring - this is ridiculous because the arabic words indicating 'seeming appearance' are present.

    There's also the accusations that the Quran propagates a geocentric theory of the universe, which is false for clear linguistic reasons, and that the earth is flat, which is clearly false in the fact that the word 'duhaaha' or 'to spread' refers not to a 'flat nature of the earth' but the spreading of 'earth' in the sense of 'the ground', not the world, like a carpet - Muhammad went on to explain that it was a parable of a tent, where the carpet protects the tent's occupant from the hot sand beneath it, and mentioned that beneath the ground were 'seas of fire'.

    There are no contradictions in religious compulsion. The Quran only compels people who have chosen Islam to follow it. There is no propagation of forced conversion in the entire book. You may be referring to the fact that the Quran says that when the muslims were at war with the arab polytheists, one of the ways a polytheist could obtain amnesty was through conversion - but the quran also says that a polytheist who desists from fighting is to be honoured and treated fairly.

    I'm not sure what you mean about 'doubts about lengths of days that aren't days'. Perhaps you're talking about the verses related to the creation of the universe, which separates this creation into stages or 'yawm', meaning 'periods' or 'days'. I'm not sure if it matters whether we know from the quran how long each of these stages were. I think it's one of the things we were left to discover ourselves.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Well, we both know it isn't even that. I understand it contains stuff copied from elsewhere, grammatical errors, and it certainly contains historical errors, scientific errors, contradictions about punishments, religious compulsion, doubts about lengths of days that aren't days, all sorts of things.
    I'd be happy to discuss this in a new thread or pms, but I think we're straying from the topic here.
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    Personally, I don't consider them Muslims. 'It is important to clarify what it really means to be a Muslim. I and countless other Muslims, have been taught from our earliest years that our religion demanded respect and caring for others. The Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    Among the very names of God, we hear: the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. All my life, every day, I have heard and used the greeting, Assalamu aleikum — a wish for the other to be blessed with peace.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    More than a thousand years before the Geneva Conventions, Muslim soldiers were ordered not to kill a child, a woman or an old person, not to destroy a tree, not to harm a priest, not to destroy a church.

    These are the same values of Islam we were taught in school as children: not to destroy or desecrate a place where God is worshipped, not a mosque, not a church, not a synagogue.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.'

    For me a Muslim is someone who simultaneously loves and has comparison for humanity. Just because someone is born a Muslim does not make them a Muslim. ISIS is a disgusting group who promote a political agenda wrapped in a flag of extremist ideology. We also must not be so naive to forget about world powers who encouraged this sort of ideology in their proxy wars. All in all I don't consider them Muslim, to say I despise them is an understatement.
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    (Original post by Ruby17)
    Personally, I don't consider them Muslims. 'It is important to clarify what it really means to be a Muslim. I and countless other Muslims, have been taught from our earliest years that our religion demanded respect and caring for others. The Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    Among the very names of God, we hear: the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. All my life, every day, I have heard and used the greeting, Assalamu aleikum — a wish for the other to be blessed with peace.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    More than a thousand years before the Geneva Conventions, Muslim soldiers were ordered not to kill a child, a woman or an old person, not to destroy a tree, not to harm a priest, not to destroy a church.

    These are the same values of Islam we were taught in school as children: not to destroy or desecrate a place where God is worshipped, not a mosque, not a church, not a synagogue.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.'

    For me a Muslim is someone who simultaneously loves and has comparison for humanity. Just because someone is born a Muslim does not make them a Muslim. ISIS is a disgusting group who promote a political agenda wrapped in a flag of extremist ideology. We also must not be so naive to forget about world powers who encouraged this sort of ideology in their proxy wars. All in all I don't consider them Muslim, to say I despise them is an understatement.
    Wellll... If you know our history, you can pretty much say goodbye to the idea that any of the muslim leaders of history were muslim. The ummayid, abbasid, iddrisid, fatimid, ottoman, ayyubid, moghul, eastern sultanate and many others can't really be identified as 'muslim' in that case. Neither can Saudi Arabia be considered muslim. In fact, hardly any political group throughout history that claimed to be muslim could be called muslim, even beginning with Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, the first leaders after the Prophet (sawas) himself. There were hardly any leaders who stood by the definition of 'islam' you mention. ISIS are actually following the precedents set by such people.

    The prophet was very clear that belief in the testifications of the shahadah/kalima was what made someone a muslim. Being a muslim doesn't make one 'correct' or 'good' in any way other than belief in Muhammad, the Quran, and monotheism. The Quran itself even says that 'being muslim is not enough' and that we must be kind, righteous, enjoin good and forbid evil.

    Your definition of 'muslim' means that someone could believe that Jesus is God and be a muslim, or not believe in god at all and be muslim. Or are you saying that there are fundamental ideas of Islam, alongside loving humanity, that makes one a muslim?

    Sister, I think you may be confusing 'muslim' and 'mu'min'. While ISIS are certainly not 'mu'min', it is impossible to take from them the fact that they believe in the kalima, which makes them muslims by the definition of the Prophet - the shahadah, which is the declaration of the fundamentals Islam itself.

    Of course... I think that the fundamentals are actually only the basis of Islam. When you have only the fundamentals, you don't have 'actual' islam. ISIS has only got the foundations, with the rest of Islam missing - but that doesn't mean that they aren't muslims. According to reliable hadiths, declaring takfir (you are not muslim) upon a group of people that profess the shahadah is forbidden.
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    (Original post by Ruby17)
    .
    More than a thousand years before the Geneva Conventions, Muslim soldiers were ordered not to kill a child, a woman or an old person, not to destroy a tree, not to harm a priest, not to destroy a church.

    .
    But they still did. (In certain campaigns and wars they committed truly despicable atrocities, just like any other human has in warfare)

    Abiding by certain rules doesn't automatically make one a member of a certain group. If I broke the law, I don't suddenly become a non- British citizen. I don't suddenly not become British because I mugged somebody. I subscribe to the belief of "Britain" as in I believe it exists and has a certain set of laws and values. But if I broke them, do I become one without a nationality?

    What you believe, and what is actually fact is two very different things. ISIS are Muslims. You might not agree with them, associate with them or anything like that. But they are still Muslims. As are any Muslim is who fights and kills ISIS.

    You mentioned Muslims cannot kill. It goes against what it means to be a Muslim. Enlighten me please on what exactly is a "Muslim soldier"? They kill, are they Muslims?
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    But they still did. (In certain campaigns and wars they committed truly despicable atrocities, just like any other human has in warfare)

    Abiding by certain rules doesn't automatically make one a member of a certain group. If I broke the law, I don't suddenly become a non- British citizen. I don't suddenly not become British because I mugged somebody. I subscribe to the belief of "Britain" as in I believe it exists and has a certain set of laws and values. But if I broke them, do I become one without a nationality?

    What you believe, and what is actually fact is two very different things. ISIS are Muslims. You might not agree with them, associate with them or anything like that. But they are still Muslims. As are any Muslim is who fights and kills ISIS.

    You mentioned Muslims cannot kill. It goes against what it means to be a Muslim. Enlighten me please on what exactly is a "Muslim soldier"? They kill, are they Muslims?
    What is the definition of 'a muslim' to you, as a non muslim? Someone who just calls themselves a muslim, or are there a few basic theological criteria?
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    What is the definition of 'a muslim' to you, as a non muslim? Someone who just calls themselves a muslim, or are there a few basic theological criteria?
    A Muslim to me is somebody who believes Muhammad is the prophet, submits to Allah, considers the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the prophet Muhammad and follows the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts of hadith.

    Obviously 1.5 billion Muslims do not all follow and know every single teaching, rule and concept etc, however if they have an average grasp and submission of the theological concept, then to me they are Muslims. Of course you could say ISIS do not follow Islamic teachings, and/or interpret it ambiguously. However, they do incorporate a lot of the spiritual teachings to their own sect and use the Qur'an rather than the bible and any other religious book to justify it.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    A Muslim to me is somebody who believes Muhammad is the prophet, submits to Allah, considers the Quran to be the verbatim word of God as revealed to the prophet Muhammad and follows the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts of hadith.

    Obviously 1.5 billion Muslims do not all follow and know every single teaching, rule and concept etc, however if they have an average grasp and submission of the theological concept, then to me they are Muslims.Of course you could say ISIS do not follow Islamic teachings, and/or interpretit ambiguously. However, they do incorporate a lot of the spiritual teachingsto their own sect and use the Qur'an rather than the bible and any other religiousbook to justify it.
    When you say 'the traditional accounts of hadith', do you mean the six books mainly attested to be sahih, or authentic by the sunni school of thought? Would you believe that the akhbari shia method of taking individual reliable narrations regardless of their book of compilation (which would alongside sunni-compiled books include the shia books compiled by Ibn Majlisi as well as other books like Nahjul Balagha) would be 'less islamic' than following the teachings and practices of muhammad as recorded in those 6 books propagated by the sunni school?
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    When you say 'the traditional accounts of hadith', do you mean the six books mainly attested to be sahih, or authentic by the sunni school of thought? Would you believe that the akhbari shia method of taking individual reliable narrations regardless of their book of compilation (which would alongside sunni-compiled books include the shia books compiled by Ibn Majlisi as well as other books like Nahjul Balagha) would be 'less islamic' than following the teachings and practices of muhammad as recorded in those 6 books propagated by the sunni school?
    I've not really given that question much thought, and I've not read them all so I couldn't really give an informed answer.

    But by traditional accounts I mean those 6 books attested to be sahih, but also shia books (if one is Shia). Essentially, if alongside believing Muhammad to be the prophet, submit to Allah, read and believe in the Qur'an you also justify your faith through spiritual conformity to some other prominent Islamic teacher, then to me you are a Muslim.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    I've not really given that question much thought, and I've not read them all so I couldn't really give an informed answer.

    But by traditional accounts I mean those 6 books attested to be sahih, but also shia books (if one is Shia). Essentially, if alongside believing Muhammad to be the prophet, submit to Allah, read and believe in the Qur'an you also justify your faith through spiritual conformity to some other prominent Islamic teacher, then to me you are a Muslim.
    The majority of the shia almost completely reject the 6 sunni books of hadith in the same manner with which muslims as a whole reject the christian Gospels - believing them to contain a certain amount of truth, with an overall inauthenticity due to the fabrication of hadiths by the first three caliphs and the ummayids (as well as some of the same by the abbasids) for the purpose of justifications for government policies that contradicted the real prophetic methodology.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The majority of the shia almost completely reject the 6 sunni books of hadith in the same manner with which muslims as a whole reject the christian Gospels - believing them to contain a certain amount of truth, with an overall inauthenticity due to the fabrication of hadiths by the first three caliphs and the ummayids (as well as some of the same by the abbasids) for the purpose of justifications for government policies that contradicted the real prophetic methodology.
    I understand, which is why I was careful to include Shia books when I meant the encompassing theology of Islam. But as ISIS are from the Sunni branch, I included the hadith. It was more of a case of me simplifying things.
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    (Original post by BlueBlueBells)
    Those seven people who voted yes proves how they have succeeded in making others think so too.
    People think that they are Muslims because they claim to be Muslims, follow the 5 pillars and 6 articles, and behave according to a classical and literalist interpretation of the Quran and sunnah.
    They don't need to do anything else.

    I assume that the Muslims who claim that all ISIS are "Not Muslims" are aware of Allah's punishment for falsely calling takfir on another Muslim?
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    I understand, which is why I was careful to include Shia books when I meant the encompassing theology of Islam. But as ISIS are from the Sunni branch, I included the hadith. It was more of a case of me simplifying things.
    That's fair enough.
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    (Original post by alishba-rosex)
    I'm a Muslim teen girl, I'm not highly religious but the first of many things mentioned in the Quran is never to kill or hurt anyone.
    Nonsense! Have you read the Quran? It repeatedly explains who should be killed, and why (it is usually the disbelievers BTW).

    Isis go against this, I don't even know what 'religion' they claim 2 be following - they're non Muslims (kafirs) immediately because they've gone against God& peace and in any religion, it's always mentioned that you should never kill
    Give me an example of something that ISIS do that you claim goes against Islam, and I will be able to show you clear justification from the Quran or sunnah (that's the example of Muhammad BTW).
    Those who say that particular passages do not provide justification essentially use the "Allah and Muhammad did not mean what they said" or "that was only meant to apply to 7th century Arabia" argument, whereas the likes of ISIS use the "Allah and Muhammad did mean what they said" and "The Quran and sunnah are for all people and all time" argument.
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    (Original post by Fiduciam)
    As far as I remember, nowhere in my RE classes was I told that the Quran and/or any teachings promoted the killing of innocent people, .
    It doesn't. It promotes the killing of those who oppose Islam - they are not considered to be "innocent" as they have rejected Allah and his Messenger.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    Just because they aren't very good at following Islamic law, that does not mean that automatically they aren't Muslims.
    Due to the ambiguous and contradictory nature of scripture, there is no one clearly defined path. Members of ISIS are following Islamic doctrine, just different bits of it to the western "moderate" Musims. And they are very efficient indeed at following the bits that suit their agenda, just as the moderates are very bad at following those same bits.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    Killing is a sin in most modern religions.
    The Quran specifically permits killing in certain circumstances - including those who commit fitnah or fasad, which translate as opposition to or rejection of Allah and his message, as well as civil disobedience and rebellion.

    It even states the killing is less of a sin than disbelief.
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    (Original post by YA98)
    ISIS go against everything in the image below. There is other stuff too such as not allowing girls the right to education and bombing Mosques etc.
    Somewhere on TSR a while back, I went through the claims in that letter showing how they were fallacious - with supporting quotes from Quran and sunnah. It is merely a piece of disingenuous propaganda by people with an agenda. As is often the case.

    Let me know if you can't find it.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Due to the ambiguous and contradictory nature of scripture, there is no one clearly defined path. Members of ISIS are following Islamic doctrine, just different bits of it to the western "moderate" Musims. And they are very efficient indeed at following the bits that suit their agenda, just as the moderates are very bad at following those same bits.
    I agree

    (Original post by QE2)
    The Quran specifically permits killing in certain circumstances - including those who commit fitnah or fasad, which translate as opposition to or rejection of Allah and his message, as well as civil disobedience and rebellion.

    It even states the killing is less of a sin than disbelief.
    I also agree. Killing in religion is a controversial issue. Sometimes it is just, sometimes it is not.
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    Muslims? Likely

    Representative of Islam? Definitely not (considering all the things they do that are forbidden in Islam)
    They are representative of a particular, literalist interpretation of Islam. Much of what they do is permitted by the Quran or sunnah.
 
 
 
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