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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I see a lot of excuses but no real insights and no it's not a culture clash it would be if he didn't want to become part of their culture but that's not the case

    Andy ou're making up a lot about this man none have anything to do with the facts but rather an idea you seem to wish were the case (the clue is the fact he has explained why he won't allow his male children to shake the hands of women) not some imagined hardship he has previously been subjected to.

    It really is quite simple they have rules he doesn't want to comply with yet still want to become a citizen and I'm glad we are starting to see issues like this being highlighted and talked about as it seems to be one of the last taboos (do we want people to become citizens of our countries who can't even show people who already are respect.)

    But yes the father wants to become Swiss given he moved to the country 15 years ago and claimed asylum so you can't really blame him being there on the current conflict.

    But it's a simple hypothetical and that you are unwilling to answer shows a double standard at play
    I'm exercising my social imagination in order to promote empathy and insight into the father's situation. I'm not saying that what I described is conclusively the case, just that there are many possible factors at play. The fact that he claimed asylum is a clue that he has suffered serious adversity and should be taken seriously before dismissing him as the man that cried wolf. We know that many countries in the Middle East have been war striken in the last fifteen years so depending on where he came from there may be serious contextual information to suggest the veracity of his claim.
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    (Original post by Alba2013)
    Off topic.

    This is a very neat form, maybe the muslim who ate a sausage roll should fill it too
    Or those who get offended over a few cartoons
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    And whats your point in relation to the story? The child has a perfect right to show he doesnt like the teachers, just as the Swiss have a perfect right to decide they dont want people who are unwilling to respect their customs and values, as citizens?
    It isn't. I was just pointing out that on occasion I wouldn't shake someone's hand and it wouldn't have any thing to do with religion or race or whatever else.
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    Ignoring the rest. I wonder why.
    The rest was irrelevant. Platitudinous statements like, 'there are more important things to complain about' or 'don't know why y'all are crying over it' can easily be dismissed as whataboutery, and I've already done that earlier in the thread. So, no need for me to do so again.

    To be truthfully honest no one really cares if the were refused a handshake.
    I wonder if you would accept that argument if it was made about a perceived slight felt by a Muslim person.

    As I said in an earlier post, most of the Muslim members dismissing this as 'petty' or 'irrelevant' would be doing the precise opposite if the situation was reversed, because they are not (and you are not) making some principled stand for the right of people to unlimited religious understanding when it comes to citizenship applications. No, this is simply a case of tribalism: the tendency to defend one's co-religionists no matter what the circumstances.
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    I'm exercising my social imagination
    In other words I'm making **** up as the facts are uncomfortable for me and openly admitting I do not see sexism as an issue would make me look like a ****

    Got it

    Has little relevance to the issue though.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Perhaps she should fill the hurt feelings


    No one gets hurt by not shaking hands, and by you comparing racism which can lead to death and mass murder to not shaking hands with someone.
    That is beyond stupid.
    Similarly the family can fill one out when their citzienship claim is rejected. If they made an effort to integrate they wouldnt have to deal with this. If they cnat be bothered to respect the values and customs of the country they seek to join, the one thats giving them benefits, free education, job opportunities and a safe place to live, then they need to find another country.
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    It isn't. I was just pointing out that on occasion I wouldn't shake someone's hand and it wouldn't have any thing to do with religion or race or whatever else.
    Except in this case it is relevant, its to do with religion and can be viewed as an unwillingness to integrate.

    Your case is different because you arent applying for citizenship.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Except in this case it is relevant, its to do with religion and can be viewed as an unwillingness to integrate.

    Your case is different because you arent applying for citizenship.
    I just freaking said it isn't relevant. I made the comment when referring to baconandsauce's comment. Do you exisr just to antagonise people?
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Why should the government dictate whether a person should integrate or not?

    As long as they get up, go to work, pay their taxes and break no laws, the government shouldn't give two hoots about them and their societal relations.
    Because the government represent the people, the group who these are trying to join. They set the rules on what sort of people they want. If you cant respect the customs and values of being Swiss, then why do these people want to join? they should find another country.

    Having a cohesive society with shared values is essential, they dont want a state within a state. So yes i can see why it matters very much to them. Not for outsiders to dictate what the rules should be.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    And in English?
    Conversing with you is like talking to a brick wall. I understand why you may wish to ignore the other reasons

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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    In other words I'm making **** up as the facts are uncomfortable for me and openly admitting I do not see sexism as an issue would make me look like a ****

    Got it

    Has little relevance to the issue though.
    I've explained to you that the prevailing issue here in my view is cultural assimilation rather than sexism owing to fact that the issue of asylum has a greater cultural impact in this case than the single sexist incident.

    As you are saying that what I say is in your words '****' and that I am a '****' I'm going to go ahead and say that I think there is enough evidence on the table to warrant me expressing the view that you are:

    a bigoted fen-sucked harpy whose tongue outvenoms all worms of Nile. You talk greasily; your lips grow foul. Would the fountain of your mind were clear again, that I might water an ass at it.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I would as it would be showing me disrespect (so your 'no one' argument is clearly and demonstrably false)
    You're contradicting yourself there. Why can't you respect them? It's not like everyone would refuse to shake hands. Just some. My argument isn't solely based on whether they care or not but the fact that refusing to shake a teacher's hand is no rule and it should not be imposed on everyone.

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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Why isnt it sexist? The reason they wont shake hands is based on their sex? Albeit its based on their religion. Uts fine if they wnat to discriminate against women, its also fine if the Swiss decide they dont approve and dont want them as citizens.
    sexismˈsɛksɪz(ə)m/nounnoun: sexism
    1. prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex
    Well the Swiss are wrong. Shaking hands doesn't have to correlate to religion or race. You're so obsessed with religion, what is your problem?

    (Original post by 999tigger)
    In this case the Swiss do and they find it relevant for all the reaons previously explained on this thread about principle, sexism and willingness to integrate. If you arent willing to integrate, then why ask to join?
    I'm not asking to join. Tbf the Swiss have a terrible culture. It's truly sad to see people come up with bizzare excuses to say it's perfectly correct to not grant him citizenship.

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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    Well the Swiss are wrong. Shaking hands doesn't have to correlate to religion or race. You're so obsessed with religion, what is your problem?

    I'm not asking to join. Tbf the Swiss have a terrible culture. It's truly sad to see people come up with bizzare excuses to say it's perfectly correct to not grant him citizenship.

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    1. Im not obssessed with religion at all. I do see the point that the swiss have and other people are trying to trivialise. You wnat to join their gang then you have to abide by their riles of entrance. Simple as that. In this instance the shaking hands does correlate to religion, becayse thats the reason they gave.

    2. Citizenship is a privilege not a right. the swiss have one of the highest standards of living and one of the best qualities of life in the world. I can see why they would want to keep it that way, by having people who share their values and are willing to integrate. Its the fact you cnat appreciate that , which is more bizarre. If they were that bad then why give them a free education and grant them asylum? They could have simply turned him and his family away.
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    My argument isn't solely based on whether they care or not but the fact that refusing to shake a teacher's hand is no rule and it should not be imposed on everyone.

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    It isn't being imposed on everyone, unless you think that Swiss citizenship is a right of all foreign nationals in Switzerland and that, in alluding that this is something of a condition for citizenship, they are implicitly having this imposed on them.
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    . Do you exisr just to antagonise people?
    Wasn't that the point of your post in the first place
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    The rest was irrelevant. Platitudinous statements like, 'there are more important things to complain about' or 'don't know why y'all are crying over it' can easily be dismissed as whataboutery, and I've already done that earlier in the thread. So, no need for me to do so again.

    I wonder if you would accept that argument if it was made about a perceived slight felt by a Muslim person.

    As I said in an earlier post, most of the Muslim members dismissing this as 'petty' or 'irrelevant' would be doing the precise opposite if the situation was reversed, because they are not (and you are not) making some principled stand for the right of people to unlimited religious understanding when it comes to citizenship applications. No, this is simply a case of tribalism: the tendency to defend one's co-religionists no matter what the circumstances.
    Talking out of your arse now? Do carry on typing paragraphs out if that makes you feel better.

    Shaking hands does not have to tie in with religion but do keep on waffling.

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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Wasn't that the point of your post in the first place
    No
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    Talking out of your arse now? Do carry on typing paragraphs out if that makes you feel better.
    A fine counter-argument, that. :rolleyes: You always were the kind to resort to insults (and poor ones at that -- you consider being able to write in paragraphs a flaw? xD) when you've lost on substance, Mary.

    Shaking hands does not have to tie in with religion but do keep on waffling.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    'waffling' -- Not my fault that you can't read. :dontknow:

    And no, it doesn't have to be a religious thing, nor have I said it does (nice straw man). The fact of the matter still remains that in this particular case it is religion-based sexism, even if that's of little relevance to the argument of those that support the Swiss authorities that it's an integration issue, not a religion issue. But I suppose reality, in your mind, originates in the rectum. :lol:
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    You're contradicting yourself there. Why can't you respect them? It's not like everyone would refuse to shake hands. Just some. My argument isn't solely based on whether they care or not but the fact that refusing to shake a teacher's hand is no rule and it should not be imposed on everyone.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Because a hand shake is offered to someone and to refuse would be to offend them (in my culture and in most western cultures)

    But it is a rule in the country they want to join and again just because you 'think' something doesn't make it so.

    and it's not just a 'teachers' it's a women's so refusing to shake someone hand just because they are female should never be accpeted
 
 
 
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