64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote
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Original post by animus01
Interesting response, to the fact I have referenced a source from the EU itself that says the CFSP was introduced in 2009 under the Lisbon Treaty (unless the source is wrong or failed to make mention), while you reference none.
If you read my reply again (to what I say) without being judgemental over it, I do make mention that the EU Parliament did not support the war, but that the judgement was not binding, as to give members leeway to decide if for or against. The Iraqi War caused division of opinion in both the EU and NATO as to whether to support or not, but ultimately the UK did participate. However, come 2009, change came about to introduce (or reform) the CFSP to create a unified policy to vote on actions the EU should take, by Qualified Majority in the Council of the EU
If you read my reply again (to what I say) without being judgemental over it, I do make mention that the EU Parliament did not support the war, but that the judgement was not binding, as to give members leeway to decide if for or against. The Iraqi War caused division of opinion in both the EU and NATO as to whether to support or not, but ultimately the UK did participate. However, come 2009, change came about to introduce (or reform) the CFSP to create a unified policy to vote on actions the EU should take, by Qualified Majority in the Council of the EU
QMV on CFSP only applies to areas under Enhanced Co-operation, which includes joint disarmament operations, humanitarian and rescue tasks, military advice and assistance tasks, conflict prevention and peace-keeping tasks, tasks of combat forces in crisis management, including peace-making and post-conflict stabilisation. All these tasks may contribute to the fight against terrorism, including by supporting third countries in combating terrorism in their territories. Article 43 of the Treaty, for reference.
So it's misleading to say the EU somehow had a controlling power over the Iraq War (or now does) that it wiaved - it doesn't, and didn't.
Well...it seems asking politely to re-read didn't get anywhere, for the same offence to be repeated - to suggest I am misleading, presenting the argument that the EU is controlling and that they waived their right in Iraq - Your words! not mine
Q: Where was the CFSP at Iraq as EU did not support
Me: CFSP was not introduced yet till 2009 and while the EU did not support, the decision was non-binding, 'leaving members to decide what they want'
You: CFSP existed before 'its institutional arrangement' changed in 2009, ultimately 'the EU has not, did not have, and will not have any control over British foreign policy that the UK does not itself agree to share'
Me: '..the judgement was not binding, as to give members leeway to decide if for or against' but now post-2009, a introduced/reformed CFSP (to take your point) now allows for unified policies of what the EU should do by Qualified Majority (part of the institutional changes you mentioned)
You: QMV for Enhanced co-operation under Article 43 - misleading to say the EU had/now has controlling power, that it waived, when 'it doesn't and didn't'
My Q is what is the problem XD which is why I encouraged you to re-read, b/c leaving members to decide and giving members leeway, means member states have discretion - I have not said the EU is controlling, when I clearly said their judgement was 'not binding' XD b/c at the very least, the EU's view was persuasive authority for a member to consider, but not necessarily follow
But! Saying the EU doesn't have controlling power after saying it does under QMC in Enhanced Co-operation cases is quite contradictory - but, that would be the exception in those cases, and not necessarily controlling (to take away your term) b/c it would be by a vote
However, having trouble with your Article 43 as it addresses the Common Agricultural Policy under Article 43 TFEU - but! This has encouraged me to look at the Treaty to clear up the CFSP issue: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A12012E%2FTXT
Protocol (No 10) refers to the use of assets in the tasks referred to in Art 43 TEU - they being the tasks you mentioned in your post, to acknowledge them
So what does this say about the CFSP and the EU now? That a CFSP needs to be approved by the Council by QM - which is what I said XD not misleading at all and reinforced by the Treaty
Q: Where was the CFSP at Iraq as EU did not support
Me: CFSP was not introduced yet till 2009 and while the EU did not support, the decision was non-binding, 'leaving members to decide what they want'
You: CFSP existed before 'its institutional arrangement' changed in 2009, ultimately 'the EU has not, did not have, and will not have any control over British foreign policy that the UK does not itself agree to share'
Me: '..the judgement was not binding, as to give members leeway to decide if for or against' but now post-2009, a introduced/reformed CFSP (to take your point) now allows for unified policies of what the EU should do by Qualified Majority (part of the institutional changes you mentioned)
You: QMV for Enhanced co-operation under Article 43 - misleading to say the EU had/now has controlling power, that it waived, when 'it doesn't and didn't'
My Q is what is the problem XD which is why I encouraged you to re-read, b/c leaving members to decide and giving members leeway, means member states have discretion - I have not said the EU is controlling, when I clearly said their judgement was 'not binding' XD b/c at the very least, the EU's view was persuasive authority for a member to consider, but not necessarily follow
But! Saying the EU doesn't have controlling power after saying it does under QMC in Enhanced Co-operation cases is quite contradictory - but, that would be the exception in those cases, and not necessarily controlling (to take away your term) b/c it would be by a vote
However, having trouble with your Article 43 as it addresses the Common Agricultural Policy under Article 43 TFEU - but! This has encouraged me to look at the Treaty to clear up the CFSP issue: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A12012E%2FTXT
•
Art 2(4) gives the EU competence to define/implement the CFSP
•
Art 218(3) gives the High Rep power to submit recommendation to the Council concerning a CFSP for approval
•
Art 218(6) rules out European Parliament consent for a CFSP
•
Art 218(8) rules the Council acts by QM t/o the procedure, while notes unanimity is needed in somecases (Union act, association agreements, accession agreements)
•
Art 218(10) rules the need to keep the European Parliament fully informed at all stages
•
Art 329(2) addresses situations where members propose (to the Council) a CFSP to establish enhanced cooperation > High Rep (opinion) > Commission (opinion) > European Parliament (information) > Council grant if unanimous
•
Art 330 rules that all the Council may participate in the deliberations but only participating members can vote by unanimity
•
Art 333(1) suggests it is possible for the Council to unanimously decide to make a decision by QM
•
Art 333(3) ^ BUT not decisions that affect the military or defence
Protocol (No 10) refers to the use of assets in the tasks referred to in Art 43 TEU - they being the tasks you mentioned in your post, to acknowledge them
So what does this say about the CFSP and the EU now? That a CFSP needs to be approved by the Council by QM - which is what I said XD not misleading at all and reinforced by the Treaty
(edited 7 years ago)
First Muslim mayor of London and the cuckservatives keep digging their own grave with mass immigration. Merkel, Cameron, Reinfeldt, etc. are NOT conservatives. They do not conserve anything. Look what happened to the Republicans with minorities in the USA. Stop voting for these fake "right wing" suicide parties.
[video="youtube;8EUANd0eg-Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EUANd0eg-Q[/video]
[video="youtube;8EUANd0eg-Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EUANd0eg-Q[/video]
If you're not going to voting in the referendum, can you tell me why?
Just doing some cheeky research
Just doing some cheeky research
If you're not going to voting leave in the referendum, can you tell me why?
Just doing some cheeky research
Just doing some cheeky research
[video]https://www.facebook.com/100003662834496/videos/815593328572754/[/video]
David Cameron said we would leave the EU if he failed to reform it, however, he's lied and is now campaigning to stay in.
Jeremy Corbyn has spent his whole life against the EU but had to hide these views when he became leader of the labour party.
Anyone who believes their views on the referendum is gullible.
David Cameron said we would leave the EU if he failed to reform it, however, he's lied and is now campaigning to stay in.
Jeremy Corbyn has spent his whole life against the EU but had to hide these views when he became leader of the labour party.
Anyone who believes their views on the referendum is gullible.
If we leave, we will trade with EU countries as much as we do now. We import £60 billion more than we export, this means that there are more jobs in other EU countries relying on trade with us than there are in Britain relying on them. The EU will be desperate to reach trade agreements with us, there is no chance of the EU putting tariffs on British products because we could just put tariffs on theirs! However, you don't need a trade deal in order to trade. China obviously exports an extremely large volume of goods each year to the EU but there is no trade deal. But trade deals are beneficial and we shall have one, so in addition to this continued trade we will be free to form trade deals with the 167 countries that are not in EU.
Over half of our new laws are made by the EU! EU law has preference over British laws. The EU is in not democratic, we have very little power because there are so many countries in it. Only 6% of business in the UK export to the EU but the 94% still have to abide to EU laws. There are 12,653 EU laws relating to milk and 1246 laws relating to bread!! Even if trade was affected badly after brexit, I really don't understand how you can sacrifice our freedom, freedom that hundreds of thousands have given their life for during WW1 and WW2.
Britain's trading future is with the whole world, not just the EU. The amount we trade with the EU as a percentage of the whole world has fallen by 10% in the last 15 yeas. Osborne claims that each person will be £750 worse off per year if we leave. It assumes that we won't form trade deals with the 150+ countries that are not in the EU, that is utterly ridiculous and therefore has no value in the referendum argument. It also assumes that 3,000,000 people will immigrate in the next four years which most people don't want. But even if it were a true figure, surely £750 is worth paying for our freedom.
Cameron claims we control our borders - that is a lie. We are outside the schengen zone which means we can check the passports but we cannot stop EU migrants coming in. It is an open border regardless of the persons criminal record. If we vote leave, immigration will not stop but we will have control. We need an immigration similar to Australia's where we can bring in doctors and nurses but limit the intake of unskilled workers.
An argument for remaining is that we get science funding from the EU. This argument is laughable because first of all it is our money originally because we sent it to Brussels. Secondly, there is actually no evidence in the treaties to suggest that this funding would stop if left the EU. The EU sends science funding to many countries that are not in the EU.
The EU is causing the rise of the far right, if we remain there will eventually be war and if we leave then the EU will fall apart as other countries will follow our lead. Nearly half of citizens in EU countries want a British-style referendum.
Cameron has failed to reform the EU despite claiming it has been reformed in his leaflets that are funded by the taxpayer. He also said he would support the leave campaign if the reform attempt failed. Corbyn has spent his whole life being against the EU but has to hide these views now that he is leader of the labour party.
Shockingly a lot of young people want to vote remain despite the EU's failure to solve the youth unemployment in Spain and the migrant crisis.
If we stay in the EU, eventually there will be a United states of Europe, Merkel wants a European army. The aim of the Eu is to make all the states fully dependant on one another. NATO and the United Nations have kept peace across Europe, not the EU.
Barack Obama is a hypocrite as he would never allow America to be ruled over by an EU-like organisation. The fact that Cameron just clapped and patted him on the back when Obama said "Britain will be put to the back of the line for a new trade deal if we leave" is disgusting. Cameron is a disgrace to this country, we cannot trust him!! Vote leave and take back control of your future and the future of the generations to come! This is an opportunity we will only get once. Don't be fooled by the lies and scaremongering. Vote leave👍
Over half of our new laws are made by the EU! EU law has preference over British laws. The EU is in not democratic, we have very little power because there are so many countries in it. Only 6% of business in the UK export to the EU but the 94% still have to abide to EU laws. There are 12,653 EU laws relating to milk and 1246 laws relating to bread!! Even if trade was affected badly after brexit, I really don't understand how you can sacrifice our freedom, freedom that hundreds of thousands have given their life for during WW1 and WW2.
Britain's trading future is with the whole world, not just the EU. The amount we trade with the EU as a percentage of the whole world has fallen by 10% in the last 15 yeas. Osborne claims that each person will be £750 worse off per year if we leave. It assumes that we won't form trade deals with the 150+ countries that are not in the EU, that is utterly ridiculous and therefore has no value in the referendum argument. It also assumes that 3,000,000 people will immigrate in the next four years which most people don't want. But even if it were a true figure, surely £750 is worth paying for our freedom.
Cameron claims we control our borders - that is a lie. We are outside the schengen zone which means we can check the passports but we cannot stop EU migrants coming in. It is an open border regardless of the persons criminal record. If we vote leave, immigration will not stop but we will have control. We need an immigration similar to Australia's where we can bring in doctors and nurses but limit the intake of unskilled workers.
An argument for remaining is that we get science funding from the EU. This argument is laughable because first of all it is our money originally because we sent it to Brussels. Secondly, there is actually no evidence in the treaties to suggest that this funding would stop if left the EU. The EU sends science funding to many countries that are not in the EU.
The EU is causing the rise of the far right, if we remain there will eventually be war and if we leave then the EU will fall apart as other countries will follow our lead. Nearly half of citizens in EU countries want a British-style referendum.
Cameron has failed to reform the EU despite claiming it has been reformed in his leaflets that are funded by the taxpayer. He also said he would support the leave campaign if the reform attempt failed. Corbyn has spent his whole life being against the EU but has to hide these views now that he is leader of the labour party.
Shockingly a lot of young people want to vote remain despite the EU's failure to solve the youth unemployment in Spain and the migrant crisis.
If we stay in the EU, eventually there will be a United states of Europe, Merkel wants a European army. The aim of the Eu is to make all the states fully dependant on one another. NATO and the United Nations have kept peace across Europe, not the EU.
Barack Obama is a hypocrite as he would never allow America to be ruled over by an EU-like organisation. The fact that Cameron just clapped and patted him on the back when Obama said "Britain will be put to the back of the line for a new trade deal if we leave" is disgusting. Cameron is a disgrace to this country, we cannot trust him!! Vote leave and take back control of your future and the future of the generations to come! This is an opportunity we will only get once. Don't be fooled by the lies and scaremongering. Vote leave👍
(edited 7 years ago)
I am interested to know - what do you all think about the impacts of a Brexit on the NHS? Is it so naive of me to think that leaving the EU will spare more funding for the NHS, which will not only address the junior doctors dispute, but also help with numbers the system needs to treat? These are open questions - I am quite clueless on the politics front so some enlightenment would be good! I will be voting, but have not made up my mind yet. Planning to do some research after exams. 
Original post by Cephalosporin
I am interested to know - what do you all think about the impacts of a Brexit on the NHS? Is it so naive of me to think that leaving the EU will spare more funding for the NHS, which will not only address the junior doctors dispute, but also help with numbers the system needs to treat? These are open questions - I am quite clueless on the politics front so some enlightenment would be good! I will be voting, but have not made up my mind yet. Planning to do some research after exams.
Whilst thats true.. you are not factoring the great plague which will fall upon the UK should it leave on the 24th of June
Still undecided, will probably never decide, will most likely vote to leave.
Original post by Cephalosporin
I am interested to know - what do you all think about the impacts of a Brexit on the NHS? Is it so naive of me to think that leaving the EU will spare more funding for the NHS, which will not only address the junior doctors dispute, but also help with numbers the system needs to treat? These are open questions - I am quite clueless on the politics front so some enlightenment would be good! I will be voting, but have not made up my mind yet. Planning to do some research after exams.
Everything you just said is true except the saved money going to the junior doctors.
No one knows what this government or a future government would spend any savings on.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Cameron talks a lot about how the EU won't expand and how the UK won't lose any further sovereignty, etc. The reality is that he cannot secure anything. Not long from now, he won't even be PM. It's anyone's guess where the project will lead the UK to, speaking of "a leap in the dark".
A EU army, Turkish accession, Albanian accession, Ukrainian accession, Macedonian accession, other countries' accessions are far more likely to happen than not happen and there is not one thing Cameron will be able to do to stop them. Cameron is not even able to keep his election promise of reducing migration to under 100,000. Not only this, but he also works against his promise by advocating for the EU, which makes it all but impossible to control immigration.
To put it into perspective, 650,000 new insurance numbers were awarded to people from EU states during the last year. That means that at least 650,000 EU migrants came into the UK. Of those, at least 250,000 are expected to remain for longer than 1 year.
A EU army, Turkish accession, Albanian accession, Ukrainian accession, Macedonian accession, other countries' accessions are far more likely to happen than not happen and there is not one thing Cameron will be able to do to stop them. Cameron is not even able to keep his election promise of reducing migration to under 100,000. Not only this, but he also works against his promise by advocating for the EU, which makes it all but impossible to control immigration.
To put it into perspective, 650,000 new insurance numbers were awarded to people from EU states during the last year. That means that at least 650,000 EU migrants came into the UK. Of those, at least 250,000 are expected to remain for longer than 1 year.
(edited 7 years ago)
After witnessing the influence Turkey's dictator has on the clown Merkel, I came to the conclusion that if nothing else we should leave to avoid being in a union which includes that country - a likely scenario a few years down the line.
I have also long been sceptical of the notion of valuing people effectively by where they were born, rather than what skills they have. There is far less common culture between Brits and Poles or Italians, say, than Brits and Australians or Americans, for example. Not that I would wish to unfairly favour Australians or Americans, either.
I believe a modern society like the UK should look out towards the world, not in towards a stagnant, unambitious and fairly corrupt - and while we're at it, not particularly democratic - political union. We can still trade with Europe. We can still cooperate with them. We can still get things done. But we can choose what we do, rather than get roped into it.
I have also long been sceptical of the notion of valuing people effectively by where they were born, rather than what skills they have. There is far less common culture between Brits and Poles or Italians, say, than Brits and Australians or Americans, for example. Not that I would wish to unfairly favour Australians or Americans, either.
I believe a modern society like the UK should look out towards the world, not in towards a stagnant, unambitious and fairly corrupt - and while we're at it, not particularly democratic - political union. We can still trade with Europe. We can still cooperate with them. We can still get things done. But we can choose what we do, rather than get roped into it.
Original post by Omen96
To be honest, this is a student and left wing forum, and the left/liberal type voter loves the EU and everything it stands for. It's normal for remain to be way ahead
I wish you had seen what Corbyn has said about the EU a few decades ago. I'm pro-corbyn and even i feel he is forced to be pro-eu , atleast to remain IN , or the blairites would have hung him.
Original post by TomTheImp
Barack Obama is a hypocrite as he would never allow America to be ruled over by an EU-like organisation.
Can you tell me the name of the country Barack Obama is from? The full name?
Original post by Drewski
Can you tell me the name of the country Barack Obama is from? The full name?
I do love when people play the united states card. Tell me, how many states entered into a trade relationship which evolved into a political union later on and how many entered directly into a political union?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Drewski
Can you tell me the name of the country Barack Obama is from? The full name?
USA is unified by language, history, culture, until not long ago ethnic identification. A United States of Europe would be something very different.
Original post by Jammy Duel
I do love when people play the united states card. Tell me, how many states entered into a trade relationship which evolved into a political union later on and how many entered directly into a political union?
Original post by plstudent
USA is unified by language, history, culture, until not long ago ethnic identification. A United States of Europe would be something very different.
Name me an area of the world where disparate states ranged over many thousands of miles, once separate countries, which fought wars against one another, were not originally linked by language or ethnicity and yet have come together - without giving up the ability to make their own rules - and have become a successful large nation.
Obviously it didn't happen overnight, but over 300 years it's not done badly. The EU is, what, ~40 years old? Nobody's saying its perfect, but suggesting it could never be comparable is pretty naive.
Original post by Drewski
Name me an area of the world where disparate states ranged over many thousands of miles, once separate countries, which fought wars against one another, were not originally linked by language or ethnicity and yet have come together - without giving up the ability to make their own rules - and have become a successful large nation.
Obviously it didn't happen overnight, but over 300 years it's not done badly. The EU is, what, ~40 years old? Nobody's saying its perfect, but suggesting it could never be comparable is pretty naive.
Obviously it didn't happen overnight, but over 300 years it's not done badly. The EU is, what, ~40 years old? Nobody's saying its perfect, but suggesting it could never be comparable is pretty naive.
Again, you are missing the very critical point that from day one the US was a political Union, the EU was not, even if that was always the end goal it was not the starting state. If you then get people joining not understanding this goal, which we did, and people still deny as an end goal, then is it a wonder that when the political union is coming about they don't want to stay?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
Again, you are missing the very critical point that from day one the US was a political Union, the EU was not, even if that was always the end goal it was not the starting state. If you then get people joining not understanding this goal, which we did, and people still deny as an end goal, then is it a wonder that when the political union is coming about they don't want to stay?
Yes, a political union (of convenience), and I'm not naive enough to pretend the cases are identical, but to deny there are any similarities is also pretty naive.
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