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    (Original post by SirKyrgystan)
    http://nationalreport.net/pope-franc...an-holy-bible/https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pope-says-...102554540.htmlThe Pope has also said the Koran and Holy Bible are the same, and then kissed the Koran.. he's also said Muslims and Christians are brothers and sisters. and also said it was wrong to react to terrorism by being enraged with Islam sooo..... :aetsch::jebus::2euk48l::angelwings::bl:
    What is your point? You have not addressed any of the issues raised by the poster you replied to.
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    Maybe if you would live in your native countries and leave us alone
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    What is your point? You have not addressed any of the issues raised by the poster you replied to.
    You are presupposing I need a point or end goal to be making fun of someone using the Pope to express a mildly anti-Islamic viewpoint, when the Pope does in fact encourage support for the religion of Islam and those who follow it. I'm sorry that went over your head. I suppose you ignorant right wings can't fathom the idea of someone not wanting to bang away at their keyboards for hours on end, in tedious and utterly pointless arguments when neither side will ever give up any ground or acknowledge anything other than the narratives created by their own carefully spun half-truths. It's a source of entertainment for me to see two groups of people with such vastly opposed views on reality, that are really just mirrored images of each other in nature and behaviour. That is all, no point to it :bl:
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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    Also I find it strange how when a priest was stabbed in France, people went ballistic (rightfully so). But no one batted an eyelid when an Imam was stabbed outside a mosque in New York. Funny how things work like that
    Yeah cause a terrorist beheading a priest in a church in what is obviously a religiously-motivated attack is comparable with a shooting of an imam by a random Hispanic where we don't even know what the motive is yet and neither do you lol. Don't be stupid.
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    Absolutely

    And think about it - if everyone converted to Islam, there'd be no need for terrorism.

    So Islam is the cure for terrorism!

    Checkmate islamophobes
    What rubbish, Muslims kill more Muslims than other faiths or atheists. If everyone was Muslim it would be last man standing.
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    (Original post by WHITEPRlDE)
    Maybe if you would live in your native countries and leave us alone
    You are a terrible troll you know

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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    Islamophobia is different from well informed criticism of Islam. The former refers to the irrational phobia of those who associate themselves with Islam, the latter is perfectly justified. When people become scared to sit next to a person wearing a headscarf on a bus, when people shoot ordinary Muslims outside mosques like they did in New York and when people feel they have a right to question your personal beliefs in public in order to humiliate you- that is Islamophobia.

    It is so hard to be a Muslim nowadays, but let it be known that no matter how much hate the newspapers write and how much hate is then spewed out from the public, clearly the faith of Muslims is stronger.

    Finally, you can't say Islamophobia doesn't exist until you know what it feels to experience any of the above and much worse. Ask your friends who are Muslim and try to understand is all I can say.
    what you are describing is not 'islamaphobia' but plain and simple xenophobia and low level racism that has existed for generations. people should no directly question anothers personal belief in public - but then there are people that simply dont like others that different to themselves - that isnt specific to islamic ppl but anyone.
    however many people have already taken issue with islamic dogma that is not relative to 'personal beliefs' but in some way political - ie islamic slants on current political issues - land grabbing excercises around the wolrd and the assoicated terroris; ie in palestine and various land disputes with non muslims over most of africa, asia etc.
    Lectures about 'morality' in terms of how women shoudl dress, what should be eaten and drunk in public, how sexuality should be made public( or not made public) etc. the fundamental problem with islamic doctrines is that it was made to be olitical, not personal - hence why t causes clashes of society , not just in uk, but rest of eruope, america, africa, asia etc etc.
    very few muslims actively take a stance against political islam, they in general tactily support it - to go against such a movement in the islamic community would risk some sort of violent retribution.
    and again where you rightly critisize muslims being questioned about their personal belief - try standing up in a mosque and stopping the imam questioning the beleif of all the non-muslims mentioned in the quran - and see how the rest of the congregation react to you; would it be with moderate reason do you think?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    incriminating all Muslims with the actions of a tiny amount
    Ah, the ubiquitous straw man of the ill-informed apologist. The only people who air this claim (all Muslims are terrorists) are a few right-wing nutjobs and apologists for Islam. But I guess it's easier to rail against than "Islamic ideology is a major factor in Islamist terrorism, and Islamic sectarianism is a major factor in the situation in the Middle East".

    is not criticising a religion - that is hating the religion.
    Why is it unacceptable to oppose (or even hate) something that you find unacceptable (or even abhorrent)?

    Hating the religion causes more problems, it alienates the malleable members of the community, which segregates them and essentially makes them more likely to sympathise with radical ideas.
    Ah, the old "don't criticise Islam because it just turns peaceful Muslims into Islamist terrorists" argument.
    Why doesn't criticising Christianity, Judaism, Neo-Cons, Marxists, Greens, etc, etc, also turn them into violent extremists?
    Without the passages that explicitly endorse or encourage violence against those who oppose Islam, it would be more difficult to convince them to be violent against those who oppose Islam. To claim that pointing out that Islam contains passages that promote violence, oppression and discrimination encourages Muslims to be violent, oppressive and discriminatory is putting the cart before the horse. Admittedly, there may be some Muslims who are unaware of the "bad bits" until they are pointed out by critics, but that is not the responsibility of the critic.
    Do you blame the doctor who tells a patient they have cancer?

    going around persecuting ordinary Muslims
    You make it sound like this is some sort of national sport. Muslims in Britain are probably as safe, and have have as many rights, as they are anywhere in the world.

    who have the common decency to follow Islam while respecting our own culture
    Trouble with this statement is that it is not supportable. I have no problem with people separating themselves by one means or another - I don't think it's healthy, but it's up to them. However, to claim that following Islam and respecting liberal secular democratic ideals are compatable is simply false.

    If you follow Islam, you believe that the Quran is the literal and perfect word of god. unchangable and acceptable in its entirety. That is not open to debate, it is a strict requirement.
    If you believe that about the Quran, then you believe that husbands may beat disobedient wives, women inherit half the man's share, women's testimony is worth less, that slavery is acceptable, that using female captives for sex is acceptable, that non-Muslims are lesser people, that homosexuality should be punished, that consensual adult lovers should be flogged, etc, etc (all under appropriate conditions!)

    Obviously, the majority of Muslims do not practice these things, but they still believe that they are valid and acceptable rules.

    I've been to the heart of Muslim communities...and they are friendlier than the average white person in the UK
    Again, you present the fallacious "I shall use limited personal experience to generalise the whole, but I shall criticise anyone else who does the same but arrives at a different conclusion" argument.

    If you are going to use the example of a small number of specific Muslims to represent Islam, you cannot complain when others do the same.

    Please, stop stirring up religious hatred every time there is a terrorist attack.
    I will continue to criticise religions on the basis of their illogicality, lack of reason and threat to the progress of civilisation, terrorit attack or none, if it's all the same with you.
    Hope that's ok. Wouldn't want you getting upset and all terroristy. (Yes, I know that you claim not to be a Muslim, but I am still attacking and ridiculing your position and belief, so surely your argument still applies. Or is it only criticising the violent elements of Islam that makes people violent?)

    You are not criticising the religion by instantly incriminating Islam with any Middle-Easterner doing an attack - you are plainly hating on it,
    If a perpetrator explicitly uses Islamic ideology as a justification for their actions, it is only reasonable to accept that the ideology played some part in their actions.
    However, apportioning of blame and criticising the content of the idology are two different issues.

    these people don't just 'snap' and turn into killers because they want to defend Islam, they do it because something ****ty has happened in their lives and they want to harm as many people as possible,
    Have you actually attempted to examine the actions, behaviour, causes and justifications such attackers use, rather than just chatting ****?
    Why are there so many attackers who did not have *****y lives? Who are eductated, comfotable, 2nd and 3rd generation citizens of secular democtracies?

    and they find comfort in radical / extremist Islam because it legitimises their hateful feelings.
    Exactly. It allows them to carry out appaling acts because they believe that their god permits or even encourages it. And they do this because the permission and encouragement is explicitly there in their holy scriptures, but many were not aware of it because they are taught a cherry-picked and sanitised version, engineered to be compatable with western society. But it's not what Allah wants, and when they become aware of it, they feel that they have been deceived.

    A telling excerpt from this Radio 4 discussion was the imam who was brought in to a prison to talk to a Muslim inmate who was spreading radicalisation, with the intention of explaining to him where and why he was wrong. The imam came out of the room looking worried and admitted "he's got a point".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06sb42j
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Ah, the ubiquitous straw man of the ill-informed apologist. The only people who air this claim (all Muslims are terrorists) are a few right-wing nutjobs and apologists for Islam. But I guess it's easier to rail against than "Islamic ideology is a major factor in Islamist terrorism, and Islamic sectarianism is a major factor in the situation in the Middle East".

    Why is it unacceptable to oppose (or even hate) something that you find unacceptable (or even abhorrent)?

    Ah, the old "don't criticise Islam because it just turns peaceful Muslims into Islamist terrorists" argument.
    Why doesn't criticising Christianity, Judaism, Neo-Cons, Marxists, Greens, etc, etc, also turn them into violent extremists?
    Without the passages that explicitly endorse or encourage violence against those who oppose Islam, it would be more difficult to convince them to be violent against those who oppose Islam. To claim that pointing out that Islam contains passages that promote violence, oppression and discrimination encourages Muslims to be violent, oppressive and discriminatory is putting the cart before the horse. Admittedly, there may be some Muslims who are unaware of the "bad bits" until they are pointed out by critics, but that is not the responsibility of the critic.
    Do you blame the doctor who tells a patient they have cancer?

    You make it sound like this is some sort of national sport. Muslims in Britain are probably as safe, and have have as many rights, as they are anywhere in the world.

    Trouble with this statement is that it is not supportable. I have no problem with people separating themselves by one means or another - I don't think it's healthy, but it's up to them. However, to claim that following Islam and respecting liberal secular democratic ideals are compatable is simply false.

    If you follow Islam, you believe that the Quran is the literal and perfect word of god. unchangable and acceptable in its entirety. That is not open to debate, it is a strict requirement.
    If you believe that about the Quran, then you believe that husbands may beat disobedient wives, women inherit half the man's share, women's testimony is worth less, that slavery is acceptable, that using female captives for sex is acceptable, that non-Muslims are lesser people, that homosexuality should be punished, that consensual adult lovers should be flogged, etc, etc (all under appropriate conditions!)

    Obviously, the majority of Muslims do not practice these things, but they still believe that they are valid and acceptable rules.

    Again, you present the fallacious "I shall use limited personal experience to generalise the whole, but I shall criticise anyone else who does the same but arrives at a different conclusion" argument.

    If you are going to use the example of a small number of specific Muslims to represent Islam, you cannot complain when others do the same.

    I will continue to criticise religions on the basis of their illogicality, lack of reason and threat to the progress of civilisation, terrorit attack or none, if it's all the same with you.
    Hope that's ok. Wouldn't want you getting upset and all terroristy. (Yes, I know that you claim not to be a Muslim, but I am still attacking and ridiculing your position and belief, so surely your argument still applies. Or is it only criticising the violent elements of Islam that makes people violent?)

    If a perpetrator explicitly uses Islamic ideology as a justification for their actions, it is only reasonable to accept that the ideology played some part in their actions.
    However, apportioning of blame and criticising the content of the idology are two different issues.

    Have you actually attempted to examine the actions, behaviour, causes and justifications such attackers use, rather than just chatting ****?
    Why are there so many attackers who did not have *****y lives? Who are eductated, comfotable, 2nd and 3rd generation citizens of secular democtracies?

    Exactly. It allows them to carry out appaling acts because they believe that their god permits or even encourages it. And they do this because the permission and encouragement is explicitly there in their holy scriptures, but many were not aware of it because they are taught a cherry-picked and sanitised version, engineered to be compatable with western society. But it's not what Allah wants, and when they become aware of it, they feel that they have been deceived.

    A telling excerpt from this Radio 4 discussion was the imam who was brought in to a prison to talk to a Muslim inmate who was spreading radicalisation, with the intention of explaining to him where and why he was wrong. The imam came out of the room looking worried and admitted "he's got a point".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06sb42j
    Its fine to criticise a religion, you are technically within your democratic rights to hate a religion, but as I have explained - hating Islam and constantly incriminating, alienating and segregating the normal Muslims makes them develop radical sympathy. Its a part of the problem.

    And you can bring up other religions all you want, Islam obviously has a problem - but the solution is not to go around gallivanting and hating on it, when it is evidently a part of the issue. Instead of pointing out the blatant ills of Islam, work to solve it.

    How many Muslims do you think have been swayed to atheism on the basis of people like you going around all stuck-up yelling "religion of peace" or "Mohammed was a pedo"?

    And trust me, I've studied every single individual terrorist who attacked western soil since and including Man Haron Monis - every SINGLE time they were either put in prison, committed to petty theft / crime, had returned from a war-torn country, had lost a family member, had been given court charges which would certainly result in imprisonment.

    Do you seriously think these people suddenly wake up one morning and decide that killing westerners is the answer to helping Islam? They don't care about the average Muslim or Islam, they want to harm as many people as possible. ISIS attacks kill more Muslims than any other group, they do not care about the Muslims they are harming, in fact, you're doing them a favour by hating on Islam. ISIS would declare a propaganda victory if a white nationalist went and shot up 100 Muslims tomorrow, because it legitimises their cause.


    Yes, we live in a **** world with **** religions which make no sense, are bigoted, and play a small part in radicalising people to extremism. But the solution isn't to go around poking it with your stuck-up 'western superiority' stick when quite evidently the vast majority of Muslims have no ill intent.

    If the Quran says to strike the heads off non-believers, does that mean we live in a world of 1.6 billion terrible followers of Islam? (and terrible as in they follow Islam terribly)
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    The ideology isn't dangerous to the excessive majority of Muslims, its dangerous in the hands of hateful, radicalised individuals who find that it legitimises their hateful feelings.
    Do you consider the ideology of Mein Kampf to be dangerous?
    Would you excuse those who claim it is the ultimate, perfect book because they weren't actively involved in the Final Solution?
    Are those people who only know the bits about welfare, social improvement and infrastructure reconstruction more representative of National Socialism than those who also support expansionist nationalism and racial scapegoating?

    Ironically, you are presenting the NRA's argument against gun control, so I guess that you oppose any restrictions on the availability of guns and ammunition because most gun owners aren't mass murderers.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Do you consider the ideology of Mein Kampf to be dangerous?
    Would you excuse those who claim it is the ultimate, perfect book because they weren't actively involved in the Final Solution?
    Are those people who only know the bits about welfare, social improvement and infrastructure reconstruction more representative of National Socialism than those who also support expansionist nationalism and racial scapegoating?

    Ironically, you are presenting the NRA's argument against gun control, so I guess that you oppose any restrictions on the availability of guns and ammunition because most gun owners aren't mass murderers.
    Its dumb to compare a 1500 year old scripture to a relatively recent novel.

    One is a vague, ambiguous scripture which has evidently divided the Muslim community. The other is a modern autobiography which details problems that existed at the time, so it was relevant and relatable to the high nationalist, isolationist sentiment that was ripe in Europe in the 1930s.

    And I am completely and utterly for a ban on assault weapons and most other guns in the US, sorry to disappoint your tangential hypothesis.
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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    Also I find it strange how when a priest was stabbed in France, people went ballistic (rightfully so). But no one batted an eyelid when an Imam was stabbed outside a mosque in New York. Funny how things work like that
    both are nasty crimes as bad as each other - one i suppose one was directly influenced by the other though , theres no point skirting round that issue- increased prevalence of islamist groups and their propagandas will mean further backlashes on muslim community. all the more reason for islamic community to get a hold of their problems are fix things. i suppose police are hard pressed to keep up with all the attacks from the non muslim side - but these issues need to be tackled from both ends.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    A telling excerpt from this Radio 4 discussion was the imam who was brought in to a prison to talk to a Muslim inmate who was spreading radicalisation, with the intention of explaining to him where and why he was wrong. The imam came out of the room looking worried and admitted "he's got a point".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06sb42j
    And that is why Islam can only cleanse itself from within. But it will never do so. You will only get Muslims distancing themselves. Empty words, no actions.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    If Islam encourages hateful feelings, then how come my own personal experience of Muslim communities
    You really need to stop genaralising the whole on the basis of limited experience, especially if this is your main criticism of others.

    has been perhaps better than my experience of white communities in the UK?
    "White communities"? Getting a little racist now as well.

    Its a myth that Islam promotes violence against every single westerner,
    Same old straw man. No one who has any knowledge of Islamic ideology claims this.
    However, it does promote violence against those who refuse to submit to Islam - whether they be from the west, east, north or south.

    [quoteit does condemn homosexuality and various other things, [/quote] Indeed it does, but you seem comfortable with that.

    but the Quran isn't a literal book saying "Kill anyone who disagrees", in fact its quite the opposite.
    So, you claim that the Quran literally states that those who oppose Islam should be left unharmed?
    Could you provide the verse that says this please, because I cannot place it. (As I said on the other thread, I would seriously suggest reading the Quran - ideally with a tafsir - before attempting to defend its contents).

    And no, the fundamentalists are not the best representatives of the ideology, they manipulate what the religion says to justify their hateful feelings. Otherwise we would live in a world with many more violent Muslims, but right now it is a tiny minority.
    Depends what you mean by "best representatives". From reading the Quran and various histories, it is clear that the current version of Islam that Muhammad would most easily recognise and relate to is the one practiced by ISIS.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    They aren't 'wholly incompatible', we have millions of Muslims living in Europe, the UK and the USA who have never done a harmful thing to their society..
    The fact that most westwrn Muslims happily ignore much of Islamic ideology has no bearing on how compatible the ideology is with western liberal secular ideals - because that compatibility is rarely tested.
    However, when Muslims do adhere dogmatically to Islamic ideology, the incompatibility is all too clear.

    You seem unable to address these issues with any sense of nuance or critical analysis. Are you quite young? This kind of "black and white" attacking of straw men, and generalising from personal experience is quite common amongst those taking their first steps into socio-politico-religious debate.
    Don't be discouraged. You will get better.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Except there is no literal interpretation that exists for some of these things, holy scriptures written 1500 years ago in a completely different society are ambiguous.
    This is why many Muslims have the decency to interpret the Quran with their own peaceful aspirations.
    So, you are saying that the Quran is ambiguous and open to interpretation, but only the peaceful interpretations are correct, despite it containing many literally violent, oppressive and discriminatory passages?

    Care to explain how that works?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Islamaphobia is arguably what alienates some of the potential future malleable young individuals into perpetrators, I think worrying about Islam hate or hate against Muslims is entirely warranted.
    Ah, I understand now.
    In the Middle East, where there is no Islamophobia, it is conflict that radicalises Muslims.
    In the west, where there is no conflict, it is Islamophobia that radicalises them.

    So, how do you explain those Islamist terrorists who come from stable, peaceful, Islamic countries? And why there was Islamist terrorism before the ME conflict, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, and even before 9/11?

    All those apologists who blame military intervention, Islamophobia, etc for Islamist terrorism never answer this question.
    Care to have a go?
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    (Original post by zakattak)
    A lot of the verses of the quran e.g. the one saying to kill all the non believers is actually to be interpreted contexually. Please research the topic you're writing about before commenting.
    Ah, "kill all non-believers, but only in certain circumstances". Entirely peaceful!

    Anyway, the Quran does not say "kill all non-believers". I just says that violence can be used to spread Islam. People do not have to convert to have their lives and property spared, they only need to submit to the rule of Islam (sahih Bukhari & Muslim).
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    (Original post by Truth88)
    Hate is path to evil, avoid hating anyone, even your enemies.
    "Surely the vilest of creature are those who disbelieve" - Quran 8:55

    "Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone" - Quran 60:4

    Opponents of Islam are sometimes quite vehement in their dislike, but at least we don't have a perfect god telling us that people with different views are vile and should be hated.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    An example would be a Muslim-only area where other cultures aren't welcome and they actively evade society.
    This doesn't happen.
    With the omission of two, somewhat emotive words, this is pretty much the case in parts of many European cities.
 
 
 
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