Paris restaurant refuses to serve Muslim women

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But you can choose to be in a gay relationship. Refusing a gay couple would be similar to refusing a Muslim.

WTF?
How does being in a relationship suddenly make homosexuality a choice?

That has got to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard!

Reply 261

Another

Isn't discriminating against a customer due to their gender, age, race or religion flat out illegal?

Or does France not have that law?

Reply 262

QE2

Original post by alevelstresss

Its people who label others as 'degenerate' for having a different opinion which makes the world a worse place.

Whereas, calling someone a "bigot" for having a different (and usually more reasonable) opinion is just fine by you.

Reply 263

MagneticNorth

Original post by Josb

It's not about reducing terrorism; this restaurant owner wasn't thinking that he would reduce terrorism by expelling two customers. It's about rejecting a set of beliefs that is currently at odds with the rest of society. People are exasperated by Islam and would like it to disappear - at least visually.

LOL, if we were to meet everyone's wishes of making "what they don't like seeing" disappear...
I've never quiet liked you Josb :wink:

On a more serious note, discriminatory French people should probably grow up a bit and learn to accept difference. That they're not living in a totalitarian system where everyone has to look the same to be accepted, or simply...left alone!

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 264

QE2

Original post by alevelstresss

its also a religion and way of life, culture, etc...

Ah, cultural relativism. Well done. :congrats:

I think people are eager to dismiss it aside as an 'ideology' because its more easy to draw out comparisons to Nazism and attack Islam.

So people are calling an ideology an "ideology" because it makes it easier to treat it as an ideology.

You have seriously outdone yourself with that bit of megalogic!

Reply 265

QE2

Original post by Bornblue

While criticism of a religion is perfectly valid, discriminating against people for simply being of a cultural or religious background (such as banning all Muslims) is certainly bigotry, which while not racism can be just as bad.

Not so. Bigotry is the "unreasonable intolerance of the views of others".
It is entirely reasonable to be intolerant of some things.

Discrimination and bigotry are two different things.

Anyone selecting a successful job candidate, or judging a competition, or choosing a restaurant is "discriminating". It is only "unreasonable" discrimination that is unacceptable.

Reply 266

QE2

Original post by teenhorrorstory

Why is it worse to discriminate against a gay person as opposed to a Muslim?

All unreasonable discrimination is wrong.

However, objecting to a person's innate sexuality is clearly unreasonable whereas objecting to a person condoning sex slavery is clearly reasonable.

Reply 267

QE2

Original post by teenhorrorstory

Quite simply, I think it's wrong to discriminate against Muslims.

Depends on the context. If the discrimination is unreasonable, then yes.

Also, do you also think it is wrong for Islam to discriminate against non-Muslims?

Reply 268

username1044970

Original post by BaconandSauce

I'd like to know what 2 Muslim women were doing in a non halal restaurant free mixing with men with out a mahram

Don't they know this is haram.........their fathers\husbands should be ashamed allowing this

but as we know Allahu A’lam

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Reply 269

BaconandSauce

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

given their actions they are dammed

They should not be doing this. While the man was wrong they should not have broken their deen and attended such a place (they serve alcohol! and non halal food would have been served!)

Shocking they behave this way!

Their fathers\husbands should be ashamed and Inshallah they will not be allowed to do this again.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 270

username1044970

Original post by BaconandSauce

Sue them

Reply 271

QE2

Original post by Bornblue

False comparisons. All white supremacists by nature will support such attacks, it's what makes them a white supremacist. Not all Muslims in fact hardly any would support terrorist attacks.

Really? All white supremacists support violent attacks against non whites?
That sounds awfully like "All Muslims are terrorists" to me. Yet in the next like, you refute your own argument. :confused:

Someone who is a white supremacist is necessarily a racist and extremist, someone who is Muslim is not necessarily.

Also you are comparing a religion and culture with political beliefs. They're not the same.

They are very much the same. They are all ideologies Especially Islam, as it professes to be a complete religious/social/economic/legal system.

Reply 272

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Trapz99

Lol he's an idiot
People are going to stop going to this restaurant as a protest and he'll lose customers. Eventually, he'll have to change or his business will go bust.

It's probably a market play - he's reading the political runes and the surge of the far right and gambling he will get many more new customers there to outweigh loss of progressives.

It's a sad commentary on the current state of France, but then again, given the scale of the atrocities conducted there, it's understandable that you get this kind of reaction.

Reply 273

username1044970

Original post by QE2

Really? All white supremacists support violent attacks against non whites?
That sounds awfully like "All Muslims are terrorists" to me. Yet in the next like, you refute your own argument. :confused:

So, you are claiming that a Muslim wearing a hijab is likely to not believe the Quran to the the infallible and immutable word of god, nor the perfection of the example of Muhammad?
Evidence would seem to contradict you there.

They are very much the same. They are all ideologies Especially Islam, as it professes to be a complete religious/social/economic/legal system.

Absurd, asinine and plainly offensive; any credibility you may have had as a reasonable debater has been obliterated with your continuous comparisons between white-supremacists/neo-Nazis and Muslims who publicly identify as such (in this case, Hijabi Muslim women) and your insistence upon applying the same rules to both. If the Hijabis were displaying ISIS flags or other symbols, you may have had a point.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 274

QE2

Original post by Bornblue

Not serving two people who have done nothing wrong based purely on their religion is bigotry.

In the eyes of the owner, they clearly had "done something wrong" - presumably publicly associating with an ideology that he found unacceptable.

I think he was wrong, but if his opposition to Islam was reasonable, then it was not bigotry.
However, discriminating against them (not serving them) is a slightly different matter.
He could have still served them, even if his dislike of them was bigoted. He would still have been a bigot despite not discriminating against them.
On the other hand, if his reasons for not serving them were "reasonable" (they were making religiously based insults at other customers) then his refusal to serve them based on religion would not be bigoted.

There is too much knee-jerk, black and white thinking around issues like this. And too little inderstanding of what words actually mean. That is the beauty of a language like English, and it is a shame that so many people just ride rough-shod over its magnificent subtlety and exactitiude.

Reply 275

BaconandSauce

Original post by Dima-Blackburn

Sue them

Allah will deal with them

"The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise. (The Noble Quran, 9:71)"

Reply 276

teenhorrorstory

Original post by QE2

All unreasonable discrimination is wrong.

However, objecting to a person's innate sexuality is clearly unreasonable whereas objecting to a person condoning sex slavery is clearly reasonable.

So it is reasonable to ban Muslims from his restaurant? Yes or No?

Reply 277

QE2

Original post by childofthesun

Refusing to serve Muslims is not unreasonable?

It depends entirely on what the reasons and context were.

It is not unreasonable to view Muslims in a monolithic manner and assume they all support Daesh and approve of their actions?

There is indeed, by definition, one certain valid assumption we can make about the majority Muslims in general, regardless of race, nationality or culture.
That is; they all believe the Quran to be the infallible and immutable word of god. True in its entirely, not rejecting a single verse.
Because of this, it is therefore difficult to accept claims that most Muslims do not support actions permitted by the divine decree of the Quran.

You can't have it both ways. The two positions are funamentally contradictory.

Reply 278

QE2

Original post by Rohan187

Is there proof? This is a bit new to me. It'll give me something to read whilst I'm dying of boredom.

Yes. Plenty.

Reply 279

KingBradly

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I think it's far more likely that he is still very upset and angry about his friend being killed in the Paris attacks, and he couldn't control his anger any longer and let it out on someone who didn't deserve it.