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Doctor Who - Discussion Thread III (no untagged future spoilers) Watch

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    (Original post by ChaosisaLadder)
    Now all my excitement has dried up it's time for a re-watch

    Quick question: How watchable is Classic Who? All this Doctor Who anniversary talk has got me wondering whether I should give the pre-2005 stuff a watch.
    Depends on a lot of factors. What's your attitude to black and white TV in general (have you seen any) for the 60s stuff? Also, "classic Who" is closer in structure to conventional drama than the modern day wibbly-wobbly "geronimo" head-butting type stuff. Different things appeal to different audiences!

    I would suggest:
    Hartnell: get hold of the Beginning DVD boxset to see how it started (first 3 stories). 'Aztecs' is a good illustration of how they tried to make Dr Who educational in the early years but you may find it a bit dry. 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' and 'War Machines' are quite watchable.

    Troughton: not much has survived unfortunately, unless they find some more missing episodes abroad soon! 'Tomb of the Cybermen' is watchable and 'War Games' tells you how the Troughton years ended, but is very long! Also the 2 stories they recently found in Nigeria, 'Enemy of the World' and 'Web of Fear' are really good - both are on iTunes and 'Enemy is out on DVD already (note Web episode 3 is missing so you get a photographic recon!)

    Pertwee: earlier stories are generally better. Get the 'Mannequin Mania' boxset for the first stories from each of Pertwee's first 2 seasons. If you like that, try 'Inferno', 'Mind of Evil', 'The Daemons'.

    Tom Baker: numerous good stories here, again the earlier the better. Try 'Genesis of the Daleks', 'Terror of the Zygons', 'Planet of Evil', 'Pyramids of Mars', 'Seeds of Doom', 'Deadly Assassin', 'Robots of Death', 'Talons of Weng Chiang', 'City of Death'.

    Davison: try 'Visitation', 'Five Doctors' and 'Caves of Androzani'.

    Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy: personally didn't like these - I'll let someone else recommend things
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    (Original post by davros)
    Depends on a lot of factors. What's your attitude to black and white TV in general (have you seen any) for the 60s stuff? Also, "classic Who" is closer in structure to conventional drama than the modern day wibbly-wobbly "geronimo" head-butting type stuff. Different things appeal to different audiences!

    I would suggest:
    Hartnell: get hold of the Beginning DVD boxset to see how it started (first 3 stories). 'Aztecs' is a good illustration of how they tried to make Dr Who educational in the early years but you may find it a bit dry. 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' and 'War Machines' are quite watchable.

    Troughton: not much has survived unfortunately, unless they find some more missing episodes abroad soon! 'Tomb of the Cybermen' is watchable and 'War Games' tells you how the Troughton years ended, but is very long! Also the 2 stories they recently found in Nigeria, 'Enemy of the World' and 'Web of Fear' are really good - both are on iTunes and 'Enemy is out on DVD already (note Web episode 3 is missing so you get a photographic recon!)

    Pertwee: earlier stories are generally better. Get the 'Mannequin Mania' boxset for the first stories from each of Pertwee's first 2 seasons. If you like that, try 'Inferno', 'Mind of Evil', 'The Daemons'.

    Tom Baker: numerous good stories here, again the earlier the better. Try 'Genesis of the Daleks', 'Terror of the Zygons', 'Planet of Evil', 'Pyramids of Mars', 'Seeds of Doom', 'Deadly Assassin', 'Robots of Death', 'Talons of Weng Chiang', 'City of Death'.

    Davison: try 'Visitation', 'Five Doctors' and 'Caves of Androzani'.

    Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy: personally didn't like these - I'll let someone else recommend things
    +rep for mention of Dalek Invasion of Earth, one of the earliest episodes but it's really well done considering it's age, have the DVD, probably my favorite first doctor story, though my favorite doctor will always be Tom Baker I expect, he was awesome in the role
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    (Original post by SciFiRory)
    +rep for mention of Dalek Invasion of Earth, one of the earliest episodes but it's really well done considering it's age, have the DVD
    They wouldn't be able to make it today:

    ep 1 has the elderly Doctor telling his naughty 15-year old granddaughter that "she needs a jolly good smacked bottom" (after she's clambered about on some scaffolding with a complete disregard for Health & Safety)

    Later the Doctor whacks a Roboman with his cane in the sewers (not exactly defending his own property)

    And at the end the Doctor's granddaughter runs off with a freedom fighter instead of staying with the Doctor (child abduction, anyone?).

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    (Original post by davros)
    Depends on a lot of factors. What's your attitude to black and white TV in general (have you seen any) for the 60s stuff? Also, "classic Who" is closer in structure to conventional drama than the modern day wibbly-wobbly "geronimo" head-butting type stuff. Different things appeal to different audiences!

    I would suggest:
    Hartnell: get hold of the Beginning DVD boxset to see how it started (first 3 stories). 'Aztecs' is a good illustration of how they tried to make Dr Who educational in the early years but you may find it a bit dry. 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' and 'War Machines' are quite watchable.

    Troughton: not much has survived unfortunately, unless they find some more missing episodes abroad soon! 'Tomb of the Cybermen' is watchable and 'War Games' tells you how the Troughton years ended, but is very long! Also the 2 stories they recently found in Nigeria, 'Enemy of the World' and 'Web of Fear' are really good - both are on iTunes and 'Enemy is out on DVD already (note Web episode 3 is missing so you get a photographic recon!)

    Pertwee: earlier stories are generally better. Get the 'Mannequin Mania' boxset for the first stories from each of Pertwee's first 2 seasons. If you like that, try 'Inferno', 'Mind of Evil', 'The Daemons'.

    Tom Baker: numerous good stories here, again the earlier the better. Try 'Genesis of the Daleks', 'Terror of the Zygons', 'Planet of Evil', 'Pyramids of Mars', 'Seeds of Doom', 'Deadly Assassin', 'Robots of Death', 'Talons of Weng Chiang', 'City of Death'.

    Davison: try 'Visitation', 'Five Doctors' and 'Caves of Androzani'.

    Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy: personally didn't like these - I'll let someone else recommend things
    For Colin Vengeance on Varos is very good and for Sylvestor The Curse of Fenric is very good.
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    Most Dalek stories are good whatever the series the only issue being from Tom Baker onwards they introduced Davros and never got rid of him till the new series.

    As for Doc 7 it goes between him having very camp pantomime like stories to dark deep stories, such as Ghost Light and Curse of Fenric, shame it ends on a camp awful story

    Colin Baker had some reasonable stories its just personal taste, I like Two Doctors apart from the cannibal aliens in it talking about flesh a lot.
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    http://tealeavesdogears.wordpress.co...ng-doctor-who/

    Very good read.
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    Helps to explain some of Moffat's failings :yep:


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    I was just about to come over and link this myself. The 50th anniversary episode ruined the 9th and some of the 10th doctors for me. Gallifrey should have burned.
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    While I agree that Moffat does seem to be afraid of the consequences of death, BUT the consequences of not dying has been one of the most important themes in Who since it came back in 2005.

    Regeneration itself is essentially about dying... but not dying. Each time the Doctor suffers death, yet channels that into regeneration energy and has to live on, despite the consequences of whatever's happened. So when Ten died, he suffered so much that he couldn't go back to see his old friends, his old life. Even though he lived on, he suffered the consequences.

    Then you have Jack. Jack's whole story is about the consequences of not dying. He suffers every time he dies - he feels the pain of it each time - but then he comes back, knowing that he can never die. This was explored more in Torchwood, especially when we met an old girlfriend, and his daughter and grandson. His girlfriend is now a very old lady, and he has to watch her age and eventually die, while he can never age with her. His daughter is now 'older' than Jack is, and he can't be in their lives without making himself too conspicuous.

    The theme is there in the main Who stories as well. Think about Rose. The main part of her suffering is not dying - it's that she has to live on, live the rest of her life, in a world without the Doctor (in Doomsday at least). If Rose had just died, it would have been very sad, but the Doctor would have been able to move on. Instead, Rose has to live without him, and he has to go on knowing that she's out there somewhere, but he can never ever see her again. That made the pain so much worse. The image on Rose and Ten on opposite sides of the wall, unable to get to each other? Heartbreaking! And heartbreaking precisely because no one died.

    I do agree that Moffat relies on people miraculously surviving way too much. But it's also a theme that Who has focussed on since long before he was the show runner.

    As for the 50th - I don't see why Gallifrey had to burn. If there was any other way, the Doctor would have found it. That's the essence of his character. Even though the suffering of that decision and being the last of his kind added a lot to the character, it's always sat uncomfortably with me that the Doctor could have done that. This way the Doctor still suffers because he thinks that's what happened - until the end of Eleven, when he realises that he managed to do something different. That doesn't take away from the suffering of Nine, Ten, and early Eleven, but it means that the Doctor's character finally makes more sense.

    And Moffat made a comment that was, for me, entirely right - the Doctor needed motivation. A mission. Something to do. The Doctor wandering around the universe looking for problems to solve wasn't going to be sustainable as a storyline - sure it's fun to watch, but it relies on our willingness to forget that he's spent the last few centuries not really doing anything in particular. I think it's a very good idea that the Doctor now has something to focus on, something more significant that just eternally looking for adventures.
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    Pretty watchable. Watch:
    First Doc: The Aztecs
    Second: Mind Robber
    Third: Carnival of Monsters
    Forth: Leisure Hive
    Fifth: Five Doctors
    Sixth: Vengance on Varos
    Seventh: Rememberance of the Daleks
    Worst recommendations ever! Why recommend The Leisure Hive from Tom Baker's era? :eek:
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    (Original post by davros)

    Pertwee: earlier stories are generally better. Get the 'Mannequin Mania' boxset for the first stories from each of Pertwee's first 2 seasons. If you like that, try 'Inferno', 'Mind of Evil', 'The Daemons'.

    Tom Baker: numerous good stories here, again the earlier the better. Try 'Genesis of the Daleks', 'Terror of the Zygons', 'Planet of Evil', 'Pyramids of Mars', 'Seeds of Doom', 'Deadly Assassin', 'Robots of Death', 'Talons of Weng Chiang', 'City of Death'.

    Davison: try 'Visitation', 'Five Doctors' and 'Caves of Androzani'.

    Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy: personally didn't like these - I'll let someone else recommend things
    Daemons is wonderful! It's full of sweet old fashioned village scenes and acting from the early 70s, it has a really atmospheric feel to it and some memorable lines. Jon Pertwee is adorable in it, he's a lovely mix of nice, friendly uncle and cantankerous, irritable, super-clever scientist in a hurry. The supporting cast are lovely.

    I notice you didn't put Ark in Space down on the Tom Baker list, which is particularly good, but some of the others you mention are terrific. Pyramids stands out, I think it really was one of the very best Dr Who stories, it has sooo much atmosphere and is so carefully, cleverly plotted, acted and scripted, that you forget all about the odd silly-looking set or mummy and focus totally on the story. The current Dr Who really misses that level of good solid BBC scriptwriting. It also has some very good lines, like 'abase yourself, ya grovelling insect!' (Sutekh to the Doctor - satirised brilliantly in a spoof on the DVD), 'I bring Sutekh's gift of death to all humans' (Sutekh's servant to Ibrahim) and others.

    Five Doctors is charming, brilliant, interesting and intelligent and frankly, streets ahead of the show we just watched.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Daemons is wonderful! It's full of sweet old fashioned village scenes and acting from the early 70s, it has a really atmospheric feel to it and some memorable lines. Jon Pertwee is adorable in it, he's a lovely mix of nice, friendly uncle and cantankerous, irritable, super-clever scientist in a hurry. The supporting cast are lovely.

    I notice you didn't put Ark in Space down on the Tom Baker list, which is particularly good, but some of the others you mention are terrific.
    I've always struggled a bit with Ark in Space - I know there's a good story behind it, but the support acting's a bit weak IMO (apart from the female character Vira) and the direction's a bit all over the place occasionally. Also I find Sarah a bit whiny in this one - I always find her more convincing in the earthbound stories where she's behaving "in character" as an investigative journalist - and the Wirrn monsters aren't the most mobile things ever

    Seeds of Doom is one of my all-time favourites, although it's arguably more of an action thriller than Doctor Who!!

    You can probably guess I prefer the earthbound stuff, so most early Pertwee gets my vote
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    http://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/53419...tor-explained/
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    watching an old episode of The Vicar of Dibley, guest starring? a very young Peter Capaldi! :laugh: completely forgot he was in this episode as well, my god he looks different!
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    Interesting article. I'm not really sure about the explanation that Tom Baker was a part of 11's unconscious. I'm fairly sure it was hinted at that he was a future incarnation of The Doctor, where he decided to 'revisit' an old face.
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    I don't know about what everyone else has heard but pretty much the whole plot of the christmas special has been spoiled.I will write what I think happens from what I have heard and most of it seems to be true.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    The Doctor takes Clara away from her Christmas Dinner to Trenzalore where the Doctor has to engage in a 300 year battle against all sorts of monsters like Silence,Daleks,Cybermen(wooden ones too?) and Weeping Angels plus Sontarans(he puts Clara in the Tardis to prevent her aging) to save a town called Christmas and in the battle a weeping angel causes him to lose his leg(the weeping angels turn his leg into stone) after he tries to flee to the bell tower thats sending the message across the universe that draws the doctor and his enemies to trenzalore and he basically collapses and states he is dying and because of hurt's doctor and the wasted metacrisis regeneration he is actually the last incarnation but the timelords arrive in a sky-crack(the timelords are revealed to have exploded the tardis to create the time cracks) and give him a whole new set of regenerations.He then regenerates into Peter Capaldi's doctor who dashes about due to post-regeneration crisis.What I'm intrigued about is what is this mysterious signal about?-its mentioned in the episode synopsis.
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    (Original post by Yoghurt)
    Interesting article. I'm not really sure about the explanation that Tom Baker was a part of 11's unconscious. I'm fairly sure it was hinted at that he was a future incarnation of The Doctor, where he decided to 'revisit' an old face.
    yeah I wasn't sure on that bit either, was just nice to read an article that wasn't just the usual "we hate Moffat" stuff, I know the show is far from perfect, but I do think people obsess over little things sometimes, all TV shows have flaws, most of them far more so than Doctor Who, I just want to enjoy the episodes sometimes without the entire internet exploding afterwards because of one 30 second dialog that they didn't think made sense. (not saying everyone does that, but some people seem to never be happy with the shows writers)
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    I like to think Trenzalore isn't actually where the Doctor dies, because when he was talking to Dorium, it is Dorium that says on the fields of Trenzalore at the fall of the eleventh.
    And bypassing all of the John Hurt being ninth and Tennant having two regenerations as well as all the other wallop along with it, Trenzalore is just that, the 'death' of the eleventh and welcoming of the twelfth.
    I think we are forgetting that this is a family show and not some great big twisty thing like Sherlock or something. Moffat isn't trying to make our heads burst on purpose, we are just reading too much into it.
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    But isnt that what Doctor who is about making our heads burst with wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.
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    The Undying Battle of the Millions

    Undying = More Regenerations.
 
 
 
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