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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    You make no sense at all. This is like saying the terms "large" and "small" are meaningless, since you could always be larger or smaller (notwithstanding Planck lengths).

    Come back when you understand basic logic.
    You have either missed the point completely or have decided to go down this cul-de-sac.

    I stated, quite clearly, that when one wishes to determine whether a state is liberal illiberal in relation to another state, the terms become meaningless as there are differing opinions on what exactly constitutes "liberal" and to the degree in which it should be manifested.

    However, taken independently without any comparisons, the terms are "not meaningless" albeit we still face the issue of the differing opinions about the true extent of a liberal democracy.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You have either missed the point completely or have decided to go down this cul-de-sac.

    I stated, quite clearly, that when one wishes to determine whether a state is liberal illiberal in relation to another state, the terms become meaningless as there are differing opinions on what exactly constitutes "liberal" and to the degree in which it should be manifested.

    However, taken independently without any comparisons, the terms are "not meaningless" albeit we still face the issue of the differing opinions about the true extent of a liberal democracy.
    A liberal democracy, as defined by the core principles I laid down in my previous post, is not controversial. What constitutes a liberal democracy is not controversial among anyone other than disingenuous fraudsters and apologists for fascism, like you.
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    To be fair, muslims living in Israel aren't exactly not getting along with the jews.
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    Here's something I only learned since the start of Operation Protective Edge- Israel actively promoted Hamas. Not unlike the US allowing the Muhjadeen free reign as they were a useful weapon against the Soviets.

    I guess you reap what you sow... The whole world, Jews, Arabs, Americans, Europeans has suffered from politicians turning a blind eye to Islamists when it suited their narrow economic and nationalist objectives.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...75572295011847
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Ah Richard Dawkins. Never missing an opportunity to call people with different beliefs from himself "mentally ill". Such a nice chap.

    Besides, since he doesn't believe in the truth of any supernatural revelations he must believe that religion is man-made. And man-made for a purpose. That purpose being power and control. Hence the inescapable conclusion that people desire power and control over others. People find ways to get that power and control. Religion is one such way. Remove religion and you have not touched the underlying desire for power and control. Without religion people find other ways to get power and control. So the problem in the Middle East is superficially religion (debatable since the people in charge in Israel are definitely not religious and Zionism was not a religious cause) but is actually, like every other problem, the result of humanity.
    (Original post by flyyoufools)
    No, religion isn't the reason behind the conflict.
    (Original post by mrfletch)
    99% sure they'd still find a way to hate each other if religion wasn't around. There'd still be the national identity issue after all.


    If religion was not around, the 'holy land' would be no more significant to the world than Dorset. However because it is designated holy, it becomes the target of crusades and jihad.
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    Not really, yes there is a religious undertone but the conflict is (geo)political. Imagine if Hitler had targeted gays first and foremost and they had been given a homeland in the wake of the war. You'd still get a conflict with the people who originally owned the land.

    You'd be correct to say that in real life the reason Jews were such a good target for the Nazis in the first place was that they had been persecuted in centuries gone by, which wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been a religion. And you'd also be correct to say that religious animosity hinders rapprochement. But I don't get the impression there's any highly religiously motivated pot-stirring or propaganda going on in the region. If nothing else that is because the Arab states would have to join in the party and neither they nor Israel want to be bothering with that.
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    To be fair, muslims living in Israel aren't exactly not getting along with the jews.
    yeah i mean it's not like the government is targetting there families in gaza or whatever.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    A liberal democracy, as defined by the core principles I laid down in my previous post, is not controversial. What constitutes a liberal democracy is not controversial among anyone other than disingenuous fraudsters and apologists for fascism, like you.
    I also stated that the "degree or extent to which each point manifests itself may be controversial".

    Imagine a ludicrous situation where you have all of those present but to a minimalist degree, and another country goes the other extreme and is "very liberal" whilst the 3rd treads the middle path.

    Which one is not a liberal democracy?

    I've made my point and I believe you have understood. In order to not derail this thread, I shall be discontinuing this discussion at this moment. If you have more issues to discuss regarding Israel/Palestine, I;ll love to discuss it.
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    (Original post by Darab_1496)
    You lot saying you support Israel are fools..Israels invoking systematic genocide on what should be it's own people as Jews have lived alongside Palestinians pre-1945 and have occupied nearly all of Palestine bar gaza/West Bank etc..you lot don't understand that zionists control everything including the worlds media and the media preys on uncertainty to sway opinions as they are the only source to most for knowledge,this is the world now unfortunately. And Hamas didn't break the ceasefire, it was Israeli soldiers and Hamas retaliated. Israel have occupied Palestine on the grounds of religious text. I don't condemn their religious text (Torah) but think of it like this. It's like I have a house, I move out u move in and then I kill you and take my house back because Someone sent me a letter to go back home on this day, even though I've settled elsewhere. It makes no logical sense.

    I strongly disagree with those of you using the media to support your views and opinions so heavily..the media would never have mentioned Palestine in a thousand years if high profile celebrities such as Cristiano Ronaldo and the Algerian team (whom donated all their World Cup money to aid in Palestine) to name a few hadn't spoken up. The only thing worse than speaking up ,would be not speaking up as it would raise more questions,so they decided to use the media once again as always,as propaganda to make the crimes sound not so bad and so they make people think it's a fairly even battleground whereas tbh it's just one sided genocide. No one said people opposing nazi rule were terrorists, and rightly so..but why now?
    Israel has even suggested invoking a holocaust upon the Palestinians.

    I agree with many of you that this is not the only atrocity going on today, but does that REALLY lessen the importance of making sure it comes to a stop?

    And no I do not believe all Jews are the same and all are to blame, it is Zionists.
    Germans weren't to blame for the holocaust entirely, it was the nazis, SS soldiers, Hitler.
    People have been swayed to support them. Do you not remember Hitler had control of what was printed in Germany? Rebelling was death and do you not know people mourned Stalins death. Why? PROPAGANDA through the media, they controlled what people knew..as far as the Russian people knew Lenin had supported Stalin,which was not true, Lenin stated in a letter before he died that Stalin should not get into power, but e did because he had control of the letter before it got out.

    Now tell me..take hitlers deeds against the Jews, Stalins deeds against his own people and compare them to what's happening in Palestine right now.

    What difference do you see?
    I see same ****,different people, different land, different way of making everyone fools but making them fools via the same avenues and most probably will end up no different.

    How can you justify a genocide upon others, similar to what your own people suffered?
    Would you not know the pain and empathise? Is it not true that the first one to help the fallen is one whom has fallen once himself?

    I reckon if this keeps going on it will eventually turn into complete occupation similar to what happened in America to the indigenous "Indians" ( I say Indians,I'm referring to the indigo nous tribes such as the Navaho,and others) and Australia to the indigenous aboriginals.

    Just because there are so many things going on, does not mean you can use that to turn a blind eye to this.. YES THERE IS IRAQ,YES THERE IS SYRIA. There are even problems at our very doorstep in Britain.
    BUT WHY FORGET PALESTINE?


    Rant over. Lol


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Not only did Lenin state this in a letter, if you read his Collected Works you can see multiple letters where he complains about Stalin having too much authority.
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    - First and foremost, I am neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestine/Hamas. I hold both sides responsible in this conflict, as neither side's political leaders are affording their people the humanity and security that is a fundamental human right. Even in war these are not to be disregarded. -


    I have recently been seeing and reading a lot of news reports from various sources regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict, all of which have been coming out of Gaza or the west bank. The majority of death and destruction is occuring in Gaza obviously and this is why many media outlets are focusing their attention there. This has, in my opinion, largely communicated a biased picture of what is going on with regards to who is the aggressor and who is most cuplable. Uninformed people see pictures of women and children either wounded or dead in the streets and hospitals and the news that it is Israeli weapons which have put them there. This is true, however the balance of reporting is decidedly skewed against Israel. The impression these reports give is that Israel are for no reason deliberately targeting and firing upon Palestinian civillians, if that is the case or not is yet to be determined officially but I know everone has their own opinons. The problem is that there is very little mention of the scale of the siege on Israel coming out of Gaza.

    (Whole video is worth a watch but 6:05 onwards for a day in the life of an average Israeli family under the dome)





    It worries me somewhat that people on my facebook news feed who clearly have not informed themselves about either the history or the full extent of the conflict are sharing links to videos from within Gaza hospitals with comments such as "Cannot believe Israel are allowed to act like this for no reason". What ever your opinion of Israel, that is about as ill-informed as a statement can be.

    The point of this topic is not to say "HEY LOOK IT'S JUST AS HARD TO LIVE IN ISRAEL AS IT IS IN GAZA" that is clearly not the case, but rather to highlight, remind and inform, where necessary, that Hamas are still attacking Israel, both parties are still at fault here. They [Hamas] are still firing a great number of rockets and they are still deliberately trying to murder Israelis in a similar fashion to Israel in Palestine. The only thing preventing the Israeli death toll being similar to the Palestinian is the Iron dome. Without the Iron dome, hundreds more Israelis would also already be dead and the totals would be more similar. In that case we would be seeing identicle videos from Israeli hospitals of women and children injured and blown to pieces. This mess is at the hands of stubborn, aggressive regimes mistreating a vast, vast number of people, both Palestinian and Israeli, who deserve far better.

    When considering this conflict and the shortcomings of both it's participants, it is worth remembering that both sides are equally to blame in this debacle. The fact Palestine's death toll is far greater is not an accurate reflection of the balanced nature of both sides efforts to kill and maim.

    Wher ever your alliegance lies, be it with Israel or Palestine, take a moment to put aside bias and recognise the culpability and fallability of both.
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    Israel = Nazi Germany V2.0
    Netanyahu = Hitler V2.0
    IDF (ISRAELI TERRORIST FORCE) = Nazi SS V2.0
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    (Original post by Zeroic)
    yeah i mean it's not like the government is targetting there families in gaza or whatever.
    Assuming they have families in Gaza. Point is, this logic makes no sense if muslims in Israel aren't being persecuted or whatever. I means Gaza's problems aren't because of the two religions coming into conflict.
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    Hamas, as an organisation, I wouldn't personally advocate. If only because of the death (by retaliation) they bring upon their own people (the Palestinians), for what - to fire futile rockets that only give credit (however tenuous) to Israel's actions in this conflict. Though one could argue without Hamas, without extremism provoking violence - Palestine would be forgotten. There isn't a just peace for Palestine on the table at the moment. To continue under extremely poor economic and humanitarian conditions whilst Israel gradually annexes more of their land and resources? That seems to be Israel's "peace".

    Hamas must be taken in the context of progressive, outrageous infringements by Israel upon Gaza and the rest of the West Bank. People make a fuss about the rockets, but what about the blockade? What about refusing to permit,energy, food, water, medicine, aid workers into Gaza? There is a reason international humanitarian organisations have (universally?) condemned Israel's actions, and do so most vocally.

    Imo the blockade was always a deliberate action by Israel to force further Gaza into poverty and crisis, that cannot be justified by any actual threat to Israeli life. Extremists are easily born of desperation and hatred - Israel has supplied both of these to the Palestinians aplenty, for years.

    With great power comes great responsibility. Israel is the greater power, they have the greater responsibility. Besides which their repeated illegal, persecutory actions towards the Palestinians are the root cause of the conflict.

    An analogy:
    Spoiler:
    Show

    - Family A moves into Family B's house and locks them into one room, where they allow them only limited supplies of the necessities they require to be healthy and happy. This is Family A's right because they've had several houses burned down by persecutors in the past, besides which they're special/chosen whereas Family B is not regarded as culturally, historically or ethnically unique. Family B deny their right to live in the house and are aggressive towards them, so Family A must keep itself safe.
    - Family B is angry and desperate. The decision makers in Family A are too far way and too well protected for Family B to possibly reach. An angry member of Family B throws stones at a child in Family A.
    - Fortunately, the child is well protected. They come to little/no harm, but are frightened and find the attack unpleasant.
    - Member of Family A decide to retaliate by throwing an explosive into the room. Family B has no/very little protection because they are so impoverished. This non-discriminately harms or kills members of Family B. Family A also further restricts supplies (including medical) into the room.

    Are both parties equally responsible, equally guilty of wrongdoing? Is it surprising that Family B don't appear to want "peace"? Does this make them aggressors?
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    (Original post by Amphiprion)
    The point of this topic is not to say "HEY LOOK IT'S JUST AS HARD TO LIVE IN ISRAEL AS IT IS IN GAZA" that is clearly not the case, but rather to highlight, remind and inform, where necessary, that Hamas are still attacking Israel, both parties are still at fault here. They [Hamas] are still firing a great number of rockets and they are still deliberately trying to murder Israelis in a similar fashion to Israel in Palestine.
    You almost seem to be saying that HAMAS just likes firing rockets for absolutely no reason whatsoever and Israel is forced to "retaliate". Is this what you are claiming?

    The only thing preventing the Israeli death toll being similar to the Palestinian is the Iron dome. Without the Iron dome, hundreds more Israelis would also already be dead and the totals would be more similar. In that case we would be seeing identicle videos from Israeli hospitals of women and children injured and blown to pieces. This mess is at the hands of stubborn, aggressive regimes mistreating a vast, vast number of people, both Palestinian and Israeli, who deserve far better.
    I believe that to be incorrect.

    Many of the rockets fired by the Qassam land in open areas thus are no danger to anyone.

    In fact, when the ID shoots down or "intercepts" a rocket, studies have shown that it doesn't actually detonate the warhead meaning that the rocket is still live.

    However, the Israeli's have also built bomb shelters. In Gaza, I do not believe there are any bomb shelters.


    Is the difference in death toll the ability, or lack thereof, of the extent and level of protection each side can offer to it's people? Is the disparity between the availability of building materials, currently heavily restricted by Israel, to blame for the Gazans not having bomb shelters whilst the Israeli's can put a couple up each day? Is the death toll higher for the Palestinians due to the advanced weapons that Israel uses?
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    Not really have u seen the weapons Israels have? Also Israel are at fault as Hamas just wants life to be fair for its people, Israel shouldnt impose rules on people who were original inhabitantants. Both sides should stop but western media are portraying Hamas as war hungry cowardice terrorists...

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You almost seem to be saying that HAMAS just likes firing rockets for absolutely no reason whatsoever and Israel is forced to "retaliate". Is this what you are claiming?
    Not exactly. The key reason behind Hamas' continued assault is however greatly more irrational than Israel's. A fundamental and founding principle of Hamas' organisation is the obliteration and removal of Israel. The people currently leading Hamas will never permanently stop fighting untill that is achieved. It will never be achieved, not without a world war. For that reason Hamas will continue to attack even if all of their other demands are met. Unless the more rational voices from within Hamas, which do exists, calling for peace are able to overcome the stubborn desire to destroy Israel.

    I believe that if Hamas stop, Israel will stop. In the video the reporter interviews a Palestinian who feels the same way, it's not just me. That isn't to say Hamas are the ones who started this. If we get into who started it we literally have to go back probably thousands of years?

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I believe that to be incorrect.

    Many of the rockets fired by the Qassam land in open areas thus are no danger to anyone.
    I struggle to agree that this is a valid argument. Open areas do not equate to empty or unpopulated areas. Enevitably some will fall in open fields yes, some will not and it only takes some. If you watch the video in my OP then you see Israelis claim up to 10 rockets a day are intercepted over populated cities. You could argue they are lying but again we know Hamas are targeting cities so it is entirely probable.

    The principle is that those rockets are intended to kill indiscriminately, Hamas admit that. If Israel's are indiscriminate or not is yet to be decided as they currently deny it. This is what I'm talking about with equal cuplability.

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    In fact, when the ID shoots down or "intercepts" a rocket, studies have shown that it doesn't actually detonate the warhead meaning that the rocket is still live.
    Do you have a source for this? I've not heard anything about this and I don't actually believe it I'm afraid so unless there is a source I'll just leave it.

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    However, the Israeli's have also built bomb shelters. In Gaza, I do not believe there are any bomb shelters.
    They have, you are right. There is probably a handful in Gaza but unlikely that there is many. Even without the ID the death toll would not be equal or even greater in Israel. There would still be more Palestinians dying because of the discrepancy in military power between the two. There would be alot more than 36 dead Israelis though. I feel the figure of 36 vs 800 distorts the picture to make it look like Hamas aren't actually firing hundreds of rockets to kill innocent people and it's only Israel. It is important to remember that they both are.


    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Is the difference in death toll the ability, or lack thereof, of the extent and level of protection each side can offer to it's people? Is the disparity between the availability of building materials, currently heavily restricted by Israel, to blame for the Gazans not having bomb shelters whilst the Israeli's can put a couple up each day? Is the death toll higher for the Palestinians due to the advanced weapons that Israel uses?
    Yes. The difference in death toll is largely due to Israel having a much greater defense in place the ID, alarm systems and shelters to name a few. That is essentially the point of the OP though...the Israeli death count isn't as low as it is because Hamas isn't trying, Israel's defence is just too tight. You are pretty much agreeing with me in this bit I feel. This is why it is easy to forget about the extent of Hamas aggression and only blame Israel when like I've said from the very first paragraph of this topic they are both to blame for this mess. Many casual observes of the media only see dead Palestinians and are not aware of this.
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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    Hamas, as an organisation, I wouldn't personally advocate. If only because of the death (by retaliation) they bring upon their own people (the Palestinians), for what - to fire futile rockets that only give credit (however tenuous) to Israel's actions in this conflict. Though one could argue without Hamas, without extremism provoking violence - Palestine would be forgotten. There isn't a just peace for Palestine on the table at the moment. To continue under extremely poor economic and humanitarian conditions whilst Israel gradually annexes more of their land and resources? That seems to be Israel's "peace".

    Hamas must be taken in the context of progressive, outrageous infringements by Israel upon Gaza and the rest of the West Bank. People make a fuss about the rockets, but what about the blockade? What about refusing to permit,energy, food, water, medicine, aid workers into Gaza? There is a reason international humanitarian organisations have (universally?) condemned Israel's actions, and do so most vocally.

    Imo the blockade was always a deliberate action by Israel to force further Gaza into poverty and crisis, that cannot be justified by any actual threat to Israeli life. Extremists are easily born of desperation and hatred - Israel has supplied both of these to the Palestinians aplenty, for years.

    With great power comes great responsibility. Israel is the greater power, they have the greater responsibility. Besides which their repeated illegal, persecutory actions towards the Palestinians are the root cause of the conflict.
    Just quoted you to say I agree entirely. The well-known phrase comes to mind when you consider the nature of Hamas:

    "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

    Yes, it's true that Hamas have committed and carry on committing some very deplorable acts (in some ways worse than Israel as they are actually firing countless rockets to specifically harm Israeli civilians). But it must not be forgotten why such an organisation came about in the first place. Palestinians have been in a situation for decades where they have no real power for self-determination. The security of their livelihood has been non-existent and at the whim of the Israeli government. This in itself is no way to live so it's understandable how a group like Hamas came into being. For every Hamas rocket there is probably a Palestinian family who have been kicked out of their home to make room for Israeli settlements. This is a horrible reality that should not be forgotten.
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    (Original post by SyedAreYouDumb)
    Not really have u seen the weapons Israels have? Also Israel are at fault as Hamas just wants life to be fair for its people, Israel shouldnt impose rules on people who were original inhabitantants. Both sides should stop but western media are portraying Hamas as war hungry cowardice terrorists...

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Most of that is factually wrong I'm afraid. If you really want, quote this post and when I have time tomorrow I will explain why.
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    The full history of the land ownership goes back further than is really reasonable to discuss here I feel. I will also admit I don't fully understand the intimacies of the ancient history behind it.

    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    Hamas, as an organisation, I wouldn't personally advocate. If only because of the death (by retaliation) they bring upon their own people (the Palestinians), for what - to fire futile rockets that only give credit (however tenuous) to Israel's actions in this conflict. Though one could argue without Hamas, without extremism provoking violence - Palestine would be forgotten. There isn't a just peace for Palestine on the table at the moment. To continue under extremely poor economic and humanitarian conditions whilst Israel gradually annexes more of their land and resources? That seems to be Israel's "peace".
    I largely agree with this. However I feel it is difficult to completely disregard the idea that Israel would not agree and adhere to the maintenance of particular borders as a term of a peace treaty; thereby granting Palestine somewhat reasonable and fair land allowance. I hope that eventually the international pressure (clearly not from Tony Blair though) will be enough to force Israel into accepting a border agreement that they aren't necessarily happy with but that is just about suitable enough for both sides. If that can happen, Israel probably won't break it. The repercussions would be too great as it could potentially be the final straw for the US who are currently in a highly uncomfortable position thanks to them.

    I do personally consider Hamas' aims to be born of "terrorism", one of their founding principles is to destroy Israel and they aspire to do so with violence and bloodshed. Currently, their plight in the name of Palestine is both good and bad for every day Palestinians. Continued bloodshed driven by Hamas increases pressure on the UN to increase pressure on Israel to broker both peace and reasonable land allowance. Continued bloodshed is however, obviously, costing innocent people, regarless of their alleigence, their loved ones and lives.


    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    Hamas must be taken in the context of progressive, outrageous infringements by Israel upon Gaza and the rest of the West Bank. People make a fuss about the rockets, but what about the blockade? What about refusing to permit,energy, food, water, medicine, aid workers into Gaza? There is a reason international humanitarian organisations have (universally?) condemned Israel's actions, and do so most vocally.

    Imo the blockade was always a deliberate action by Israel to force further Gaza into poverty and crisis, that cannot be justified by any actual threat to Israeli life. Extremists are easily born of desperation and hatred - Israel has supplied both of these to the Palestinians aplenty, for years.
    Yes, to some degree. Again though, even if all Israeli activity against Palestine ceased immediately, the current leadership of Hamas would still feel obliged to continue the effort to destroy Israel under their founding principles.

    Regarding the blockade, the Israelis would have you believe its soley prohibiting the import of weapons. This is something that needs investigating. I'm slightly skeptical [that it's only weapons] because I know the general mood among a large number of Israeli soldiers is incredibly anti-Arab. Therefore, regardless of whether their commands are to block supplies, weapons or both, I have a feeling the men on the ground are inclined to make arabs suffer. Articles 51 and 54 of protocol 1 under the Geneva convention specifically address this as illegal activity. Blockading weapons however, is not. This is why the blockades need investigating. God damned US veto *******s holding it back though. I reserve judgement on this though until it's been proven one way or the other.

    • Articles 51[6] and 54 outlaw indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations, and destruction of food, water, and other materials needed for survival. Indiscriminate attacks include directly attacking civilian (non-military) targets, but also using technology such as biological weapons, nuclear weapons and land mines, whose scope of destruction cannot be limited.[5] A total war that does not distinguish between civilian and military targets is considered a war crime.
    I completely agree that Israels actions are only intensifying and generating new hated towards themselves within Palestine and elsewhere. Every day fathers, sons, daughters and wives are rapidly converted to extremist militants that they would not have otherwise become without the unnecessary loss of their loved ones. Political and religious motives are often jaded or set aside in favour of vengeance I imagine. This is what Hamas want though, I can't help but feel they are completely at ease with the volume of dead civillians and would probably want many more. More dead = greater anti-Israeli movement from both within Palestine and out.

    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    With great power comes great responsibility. Israel is the greater power, they have the greater responsibility. Besides which their repeated illegal, persecutory actions towards the Palestinians are the root cause of the conflict.
    This, I feel, is a bit unfair. Some of Israels actions are absoloutely unsavoury and need investigating to establish the legality of them. They are indeed the greater force but they should not be expected to sit back and just sustain continued aggression from Hamas. Like I said, I believe even if Israel withdrew all its personel of all kinds and ceased all activity against hamas/Gaza/west bank, Hamas would continue to attack. Israel do have a legal right to defend themselves, whether or not they are being too heavy handed and not precise enough is entirely questionable.
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    False. Religion is merely a guise.

 
 
 
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