Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2821
Report 6 years ago
#2821
(Original post by punani)
The King at this time was of course James VI, regarded as one of Scotland and England's greatest kings. Now as I'm sure you are aware Elizabeth I has been credited with heralding the golden age (In fact James VI inherited a large fiscal deficit from her), but it was James VI/I era that was in fact "the" golden age. Economically, culturally and socially this is indisputable.
On what planet? His reign was characterised by a profligate and financially incompetent court, great inflation, and strife between king and parliament - as well as between the Scottish church and the king. Catholics were repressed harshly. His doctrine of political absolutism laid the foundations for the disastrous later civil wars.
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2822
Report 6 years ago
#2822
(Original post by Good bloke)
On what planet? His reign was characterised by a profligate and financially incompetent court, great inflation, and strife between king and parliament - as well as between the Scottish church and the king. Catholics were repressed harshly. His doctrine of political absolutism laid the foundations for the disastrous later civil wars.
Eh, it was a period of uninterrupted peace and low taxation. If you had suffered an assassination attempt by a catholic and foiled two plots to remove you in your first year on the thrown by Catholics, you may have had a problem with them also and I don't recall Catholics being treated particularly well under Elizabeth I either.

His court was incompetent, this is true, but the reason for this was because he was concentrating on foreign policy, particularly with Spain in order to ensure peace and prosperity for his people. In this he was exceptionally successful and the people, Scots and English, loved him for it.

The problems with Parliament were due to the greed of the English nobility and I very much doubt he was the only Monarch during this period who believed in the divine right of kings.

You have clearly bought into the anti-Stuart, English propaganda regarding James VI, mostly written by people he sacked due to incompetence and treachery.

The Civil Wars were really due to religious and socio-economic reasons. If you actually believe it was because Charles I was too arrogant, then you should perhaps pursue more research.
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2823
Report 6 years ago
#2823
An English conspiracy to rob Scotland of her oil reserves! Can they sink any lower?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...osed-1-3097199
0
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2824
Report 6 years ago
#2824
(Original post by punani)
An English conspiracy to rob Scotland of her oil reserves! Can they sink any lower?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...osed-1-3097199
How do you go from the published suggestion from an independent academic economic research organisation to an English conspiracy?

And how is a suggestion of an oil-for-debt swap, that could alleviate the problems caused by the higher interest rates that Scotland would be paying, robbing her of her reserves?
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2825
Report 6 years ago
#2825
(Original post by Good bloke)
How do you go from the published suggestion from an independent academic economic research organisation to an English conspiracy?

And how is a suggestion of an oil-for-debt swap, that could alleviate the problems caused by the higher interest rates that Scotland would be paying, robbing her of her reserves?
It is a conspiracy because it starts with a false assumption that Scotland should inherit any of Westminster's debts and that these should be allocated based on population. Complete muppetry.

It robs her of her reserves because the English would get the oil reserves in exchange for a debt that should not be passed onto an Independent Scotland in the first place.
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#2826
Report 6 years ago
#2826
I'm suprised teh CyberNat community haven't all logged on here to skew the polling results.
0
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2827
Report 6 years ago
#2827
(Original post by punani)
It is a conspiracy because it starts with a false assumption that Scotland should inherit any of Westminster's debts and that these should be allocated based on population. Complete muppetry.

It robs her of her reserves because the English would get the oil reserves in exchange for a debt that should not be passed onto an Independent Scotland in the first place.
Ah! That again. There is no doubt that Scotland will be taking debt, that this is perfectly reasonable and that none of the politicians (on both sides of the border) and law officers involved will ever think otherwise.

If the boot were on the other foot, and England were thinking of leaving the UK and leaving it to the Celtic nations (UN membership & veto, EU membership and all), would you expect England to take a share of the debt, or would it be reasonable that the remaining constituents of the UK should take it all?
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2828
Report 6 years ago
#2828
(Original post by Good bloke)
Ah! That again. There is no doubt that Scotland will be taking debt, that this is perfectly reasonable and that none of the politicians (on both sides of the border) and law officers involved will ever think otherwise.

If the boot were on the other foot, and England were thinking of leaving the UK and leaving it to the Celtic nations (UN membership & veto, EU membership and all), would you expect England to take a share of the debt, or would it be reasonable that the remaining constituents of the UK should take it all?
It is indeed a great pity that the SNP are the main proponents of the independence campaign. They have deliberately sabotaged it in order to protect their own selfish interests. The people of Scotland will remember this betrayal.

I would expect England to take all of it since it was predominantly English voters who propped up the governments that made these calamitous decisions. Scotland has never prevented a party that won the majority of votes in England from taking power at Westminster, yet the reverse of this has been a cause of constant frustration.
0
doggyfizzel
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2829
Report 6 years ago
#2829
Quite frankly I'd prefer for Scotland just to take its share of the national debt, than any kind of oil exchange deal.
0
Mrx123
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#2830
Report 6 years ago
#2830
I'm unsure of how to feel on the situation. I can't make sense of why you would split up Great Britain in a time when the world is struggling with it's economies, especially Europe and I assume if Scotland do get independence then they will adopt the Euro.

Ireland left us almost 100 years ago and they've,,,sort have done alright minus the economy but they've shown they can govern themselves so it isn't impossible for Scotland to do the same...I just don't think now is the best time for them to do so
0
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2831
Report 6 years ago
#2831
(Original post by punani)
I would expect England to take all of it since it was predominantly English voters who propped up the governments that made these calamitous decisions.
In 2005, to take an election that produced a calamitous UK government, Scotland returned 41 Labour MPs (about 10% of all Labour's seats) out of its 59 seats. Over two-thirds of the Scottish constituencies returned Labour MPs. In the UK as a whole the Labour proportion was just over 62% of all seats, and in England only 54% of MPs returned were Labour. So you can't say that Scots didn't vote for what they received.

It was even worse in 2001.
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2832
Report 6 years ago
#2832
(Original post by Good bloke)
In 2005, to take an election that produced a calamitous UK government, Scotland returned 41 Labour MPs (about 10% of all Labour's seats) out of its 59 seats. Over two-thirds of the Scottish constituencies returned Labour MPs. In the UK as a whole the Labour proportion was just over 62% of all seats, and in England only 54% of MPs returned were Labour. So you can't say that Scots didn't vote for what they received.

It was even worse in 2001.
If Scotland hadn't taken part in the 2001 and 2005 general elections, Labour would still have won a majority. In 2001 they had a majority of 167, when there were only 72 Scottish MP's. In 2005 they had a majority of 67 and there were only 59 Scottish MP's.

How in any way did Scotland influence these elections?

Can you say the same for elections whereby the will of the Scottish people was superseded by those of the English? Of course not.
0
Mrx123
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#2833
Report 6 years ago
#2833
(Original post by emmarussell55)
Scotland has to become independent for the sake of is own economy! The measly 54 MPs elected from scotland will never make a difference in who gets in power considering from London and down further in the south east have 129 MPs! We are getting NO say in the way or economy is run cause our votes don't matter to the public school boys in downing st. The Tories are going to pass more and more legislation allowing the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer, even though its the multimillionaire bankers who caused this mess, not labour! Not to mention trying to convince us to get out of the EU and lose the best political and financial safety net in the world! Also, us Scots get given too much from Westminster? Do we hell! We put in more than we get back! Scotland will come out better in 2014, then we'll see how England, Wales and Northern Ireland do with a permanent Tory government that do not care about 90% of the population.
From here we can only go up ALBA GU BRATH!!!!!!


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
Wow you sound delusional
1
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2834
Report 6 years ago
#2834
(Original post by punani)
If Scotland hadn't taken part in the 2001 and 2005 general elections, Labour would still have won a majority. In 2001 they had a majority of 167, when there were only 72 Scottish MP's. In 2005 they had a majority of 67 and there were only 59 Scottish MP's.

How in any way did Scotland influence these elections?

Can you say the same for elections whereby the will of the Scottish people was superseded by those of the English? Of course not.
You don't seem to understand that Scotland would have (and did) vote for the same left-wing, high-spending governments, only more so. If the whole of England had abstained the government would have been the same one, still led by Scots, and you would still be here complaining that a Westminster government incurred all this debt, despite the fact that Scots voted for it.

I don't know why you want independence but you should face the fact that if it is to get a low-spending, low-debt government you won't succeed. For the last twenty or thirty years Scots have returned left-wing high-spending, high-taxing MPs and MSPs in overwhelming numbers.

If it is to get financial independence, again you'll be disappointed as either the Germans or the British will have a major hand on your financial tiller through control of the currency.

If it is to capitalise on the North Sea oil bonanza, you are forty years too late. You'll need to be spending that income, not salting it away like Norway did - or paying for current and planned expenditure through higher taxes.

The only valid reason to vote for independence is rabid anti-English feeling, which isn't very honourable but at least its honest.
0
Mrx123
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#2835
Report 6 years ago
#2835
And why does Scotland dislike England so much, after all this time, that damn Brave heart film...which was filmed in IRELAND. Last time I checked, people stopped using swords and Bows and Arrows and raiding

The past is the past, get over Flodden, William Wallace, Robert Bruce and Bonnie Charlie, we are better united then apart. The Scot MP'S sounds like they have no clue on what their doing

We don't complain about losing at Stirling Bridge or Bannockburn

If you do have your independence and look after yourselves then take your share of the debt and England wishes you the best in your future endeavours
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2836
Report 6 years ago
#2836
(Original post by Good bloke)
You don't seem to understand that Scotland would have (and did) vote for the same left-wing, high-spending governments, only more so. If the whole of England had abstained the government would have been the same one, still led by Scots, and you would still be here complaining that a Westminster government incurred all this debt, despite the fact that Scots voted for it.

I don't know why you want independence but you should face the fact that if it is to get a low-spending, low-debt government you won't succeed. For the last twenty or thirty years Scots have returned left-wing high-spending, high-taxing MPs and MSPs in overwhelming numbers.

If it is to get financial independence, again you'll be disappointed as either the Germans or the British will have a major hand on your financial tiller through control of the currency.

If it is to capitalise on the North Sea oil bonanza, you are forty years too late. You'll need to be spending that income, not salting it away like Norway did - or paying for current and planned expenditure through higher taxes.

The only valid reason to vote for independence is rabid anti-English feeling, which isn't very honourable but at least its honest.
I don't know if you are unintentionally trying to miss my obvious point or whether you realise it makes your argument defunct and are trying your best to avoid it?

Westminster has produced many governments that the people of Scotland didn't vote for. Scotland has never prevented a Westminster government from winning despite voting to the contrary.

Funny how the rabid left wing communists in Scotland have returned more budget surpluses than Westminster then isn't it? When was the last UK budget surplus? Oh, yeah when Labour were in power. Oh dear.

What makes you think I am pro independence?
0
punani
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#2837
Report 6 years ago
#2837
They are discussing Scottish Independence on Newsnight tonight. May be worth a watch.
0
Mechie
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#2838
Report 6 years ago
#2838
(Original post by Mrx123)
And why does Scotland dislike England so much, after all this time, that damn Brave heart film...which was filmed in IRELAND. Last time I checked, people stopped using swords and Bows and Arrows and raiding

The past is the past, get over Flodden, William Wallace, Robert Bruce and Bonnie Charlie, we are better united then apart. The Scot MP'S sounds like they have no clue on what their doing

We don't complain about losing at Stirling Bridge or Bannockburn

If you do have your independence and look after yourselves then take your share of the debt and England wishes you the best in your future endeavours
Are you for real? That's not why people want independence at all. It's more to do with that Scotland's votes haven't influenced a UK Government since 1945. And England getting the big infrastructure projects instead of Scotland, oil discovered in what would be Scottish waters spent how non-Scottish influenced UK governments wanted it, and many more.

I recommend you watch this:

0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#2839
Report 6 years ago
#2839
(Original post by Mechie)
Are you for real? That's not why people want independence at all. It's more to do with that Scotland's votes haven't influenced a UK Government since 1945. And England getting the big infrastructure projects instead of Scotland, oil discovered in what would be Scottish waters spent how non-Scottish influenced UK governments wanted it, and many more.

I recommend you watch this:
what infrastructure projects? Like the new forth bridge? The 30% of renewables spending or the £700 million tram in Edinburgh?
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#2840
Report 6 years ago
#2840
(Original post by punani)
They are discussing Scottish Independence on Newsnight tonight. May be worth a watch.
Why? It'll be the same old rhetoric
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you made up your mind on your five uni choices?

Yes I know where I'm applying (154)
59.46%
No I haven't decided yet (60)
23.17%
Yes but I might change my mind (45)
17.37%

Watched Threads

View All