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    Too much to read

    Hamas keep firing rockets

    Cost of 1 hamas rocket=$500
    Cost for iron dome to intercept=$100,000
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    Oh stop it, read an article showing that people were happily taking selfies when the sirens went off in Israel.
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    (Original post by jabire3)
    Oh stop it, read an article showing that people were happily taking selfies when the sirens went off in Israel.
    So it happens so often they've become desensitised?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I also stated that the "degree or extent to which each point manifests itself may be controversial".

    Imagine a ludicrous situation where you have all of those present but to a minimalist degree, and another country goes the other extreme and is "very liberal" whilst the 3rd treads the middle path.

    Which one is not a liberal democracy?

    I've made my point and I believe you have understood. In order to not derail this thread, I shall be discontinuing this discussion at this moment. If you have more issues to discuss regarding Israel/Palestine, I;ll love to discuss it.
    Being a liberal democracy is not a binary distinction; a country can be more or less liberal. We should support the more liberal countries over the less liberal ones.
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    I'm happy Israeli citizens have the Iron Dome and I feel bad that they are caught up in the mess but in the grand scheme of things they are being inconvenienced because of their own country's brutality towards the Palestinians which sorry to say is war crimes and ethnic cleansing that can't be entirely compared to the Nazi regime only because they haven't gone as far as to systematically gas the Palestinians out.

    Israel steals Palestinian land, ghettoizing the Palestinians and choking off their rights to much needed supplies and their rights to economic freedoms.

    It settles Jewish settlers onto Palestinian land (whom are sorry to say not innocent in this and have and do engage in provocations and abuses), and launches these assaults on civilian populations without just cause (there is no proof whatsoever that Palestinians had any hand in the disappearance of those 3 teenagers) and basically every other act.

    Also since Palestinians and Palestine are not considered part of Israel (if it were Israel would be expected to treat them as they do their own people) they are in gross violation of Palestine's sovereignty.


    I mean, I could write a fat and heavy large tome on the issue, suffice to say Israel comes off worse and really only Israel has the power to make genuine efforts for a fair and actual peaceful solution.

    I'm sure if it wasn't for the powerful neo-con Christian and Jewish lobbies in the western world and the PR coup of the Holocaust which Israel abuses the memory of to cover it's own actions, it's system of Apartheid would have been condemned and dealt with a long time ago.


    But until America is weaned off of it;s favourite client state the crisis will continue, I fear until the Palestinians are cleansed from the Levant.

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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    Yes I think it is fair to call Hamas terrorists - though it may be an unneccessarily emotive term.
    Well, the EU, Australia, Canada, USA, Japan and others all list them as a terrorist group. Nothing emotive about that. I can't think how strapping a bomb onto yourself and deliberately walking onto a bus full of civilians is.

    Do you think the 7/7 bomber were terrorists? or is that a bit too "emotive" for you?

    Israel is no less guilty of using rockets to terrorise and kill civilian populations,
    Except for the fact that Israel has gone through years and billions of dollars to design weapons that minimise civilian casualties. Missiles with a small blast radius. Some which implode rather than explode. Missiles that can be aborted even after being fired to save civilian lives.

    Telephone calls, texts, leaflet drops, roof-knocks. All designed to cause the least amount of civilian casualties.

    Hamas on the other hand, pack ball bearings into their rockets to maximise indiscriminate casualties.

    Hamas' desire to pursue Israel beyond peace and utterly destroy it (whilst ludicrous) also constitutes extremism, imo. However, extremism such as this is essentially "to be expected" given the context in Palestine. The years of persecution,
    palestinian terrorism against Jews preceded settlements, occupation and even the state of Israel itself.

    the desperate poverty
    More aid per capita than anyone else on earth. A 16% increase in obesity rates in Gaza.

    An estimated (by the UN) $2 billion spent on rockets and tunnels.

    - Israel has driven Palestine to this; created the monster. A dog that you kick and starve becomes vicious.
    palestinian terrorism presceded settlements, occupation and the state of Israel itself.

    No matter how you try and cut it, they were raiding Jewish villages decades before Israel was reestablished.


    How many Palestinians would cease to support the party if they felt there was a reasonable alternative?
    They voted for Hamas when Gaza was unoccupied and borders were open. They essentially voted for Hamas when Gaza was having its best period.


    "Slight skepticism" and "reserving judgement" are inappropriate at this stage. Nor is the blockade of food/aid/etc
    Food is not blockaded. No palestinian in Gaza has died from hunger.

    It has been clear for many years that the blockade is against more than weapons and is in fact depriving Palestinians of the basic necessities to live.
    Israel pulled out in 2005. Open borders until 2007. The palestinians had two years to prove themselves and spent it terrorising Israel instead.

    Blockade came because of terrorism.

    This has been thoroughly investigated and established on multiple occasions by reputed international organisations and charities who have unilaterally condemned the blockade as illegal.
    Nonsense. The blockade is legal as per the Palmer report. Please don't post complete nonsense like this.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Well, the EU, Australia, Canada, USA, Japan and others all list them as a terrorist group. Nothing emotive about that. I can't think how strapping a bomb onto yourself and deliberately walking onto a bus full of civilians is.

    Do you think the 7/7 bomber were terrorists? or is that a bit too "emotive" for you?


    Except for the fact that Israel has gone through years and billions of dollars to design weapons that minimise civilian casualties. Missiles with a small blast radius. Some which implode rather than explode. Missiles that can be aborted even after being fired to save civilian lives.

    Telephone calls, texts, leaflet drops, roof-knocks. All designed to cause the least amount of civilian casualties.

    Hamas on the other hand, pack ball bearings into their rockets to maximise indiscriminate casualties.


    palestinian terrorism against Jews preceded settlements, occupation and even the state of Israel itself.



    More aid per capita than anyone else on earth. A 16% increase in obesity rates in Gaza.

    An estimated (by the UN) $2 billion spent on rockets and tunnels.



    palestinian terrorism presceded settlements, occupation and the state of Israel itself.

    No matter how you try and cut it, they were raiding Jewish villages decades before Israel was reestablished.




    They voted for Hamas when Gaza was unoccupied and borders were open. They essentially voted for Hamas when Gaza was having its best period.



    Food is not blockaded. No palestinian in Gaza has died from hunger.



    Israel pulled out in 2005. Open borders until 2007. The palestinians had two years to prove themselves and spent it terrorising Israel instead.

    Blockade came because of terrorism.



    Nonsense. The blockade is legal as per the Palmer report. Please don't post complete nonsense like this.
    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1406543707.212824.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  32.3 KB yes because this photo absolutely proves Israel uses weapons that minimise civilian casualties right?

    Get out of your Hasbara war room please or is that scholarship really needed by you that badly?

    If Israel cared about civilians, the casualties would not be 80% civilians regardless of any unsubstantiated claims you make about Hamas using civilians as human shields by placing rockets near them. These rockets are hardly lethal and yet the Israelis are more than happy to kill civilians with them and take lives over them.

    Oh so you think the Gazans are somehow healthier now because obesity rates went up? You do realise you could become obese eating only corn starch but you'd be incredibly unhealthy like these Gazans are due to the starvation they face. Besides 16% up from what? Total emaciation?

    You use the term 'Palestinians' to justify the collective punishment of all Palestinian people when the group to blame is Hamas. I don't blame you, you must have had a lot of Israeli anti-Arab propaganda to hold the views you hold. Just realise that if you were in the shoes of a Palestinian who had lost his entire family to Israel's war crimes. You'd do the exact same.

    The Hamas terrorists do on a small scale what Israel does on a humongous scale. I.E. Civilian casualties. Why justify Israel's perpetration of these but not Hamas's? Using one or two reports that are probably written by Zionist academics does nothing to prove your point.


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    (Original post by Reptilian)
    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1406543707.212824.jpg
Views: 71
Size:  32.3 KB yes because this photo absolutely proves Israel uses weapons that minimise civilian casualties right?

    Get out of your Hasbara war room please or is that scholarship really needed by you that badly?

    If Israel cared about civilians, the casualties would not be 80% civilians regardless of any unsubstantiated claims you make about Hamas using civilians as human shields by placing rockets near them. These rockets are hardly lethal and yet the Israelis are more than happy to kill civilians with them and take lives over them.

    Oh so you think the Gazans are somehow healthier now because obesity rates went up? You do realise you could become obese eating only corn starch but you'd be incredibly unhealthy like these Gazans are due to the starvation they face. Besides 16% up from what? Total emaciation?

    You use the term 'Palestinians' to justify the collective punishment of all Palestinian people when the group to blame is Hamas. I don't blame you, you must have had a lot of Israeli anti-Arab propaganda to hold the views you hold. Just realise that if you were in the shoes of a Palestinian who had lost his entire family to Israel's war crimes. You'd do the exact same.

    The Hamas terrorists do on a small scale what Israel does on a humongous scale. I.E. Civilian casualties. Why justify Israel's perpetration of these but not Hamas's? Using one or two reports that are probably written by Zionist academics does nothing to prove your point.


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    Typical hyperbole and emotive nonsense.

    Try and debate someone without accusing them of being paid, if you want to get any responses.
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    digging the tunnels which are used to then terrorise Israel.

    Hamas used children to help them dig numerous tunnels into Israel and Egypt, a 2012 paper written for the Journal of Palestine Studies reported.
    The paper, titled Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon: The Unintended Dynamics of Israel's Siege says that little had been done to stop the phenomenon of child labor during the digging the tunnels by Hamas in Gaza.

    In December 2011, the paper's author Nicolas Pelham accompanied a police patrol in Gaza and reported that "nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies."

    He continued and said that "at least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials."



    It's worth noting that the tunnels preceded the blockade


    I'm sure the left wing will go out and protest these deaths
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    FYI hamas dont need any reason to let loose rockets, nor permission from any 'governmental' politician, i guess they do so everytime they run out of space storing rockets in palestinian schools
    Tbh, I cook up all my mince if it's about to go off.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Typical hyperbole and emotive nonsense.

    Try and debate someone without accusing them of being paid, if you want to get any responses.
    Nice ducking my points :applause:


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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Try and debate someone without accusing them of being paid,
    Are you though?
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    Surely the question is pro-Israel or pro-Hamas?

    I am pro-Israel and pro-Gaza. They are not mutually exclusive, despite what Hamas and their supporters would have you believe
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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)

    Hamas' desire to pursue Israel beyond peace and utterly destroy it (whilst ludicrous) also constitutes extremism, imo. However, extremism such as this is essentially "to be expected" given the context in Palestine. The years of persecution, the lack of political agency, the desperate poverty - Israel has driven Palestine to this; created the monster. A dog that you kick and starve becomes vicious.

    The greatest shame is that Hamas provokes extremism and intolerance in Israel, worsening the political spectrum there.

    True. And the hatred Palestinians feel toward Israel might continue to fuel Hamas for some time. However, Israel's continuing disproportionate aggression is only providing fodder for extremism in Palestine. How many Palestinians would cease to support the party if they felt there was a reasonable alternative?



    "Slight skepticism" and "reserving judgement" are inappropriate at this stage. Nor is the blockade of food/aid/etc the responsibility of rogue anti-Arab foot soldiers (though rogue Israeli groups certainly contribute to Palestinian mistreatment, particularly with regard to continuing occupations) - the blockade and it's devastating effects are deliberate and endorsed by the Israeli government.

    It has been clear for many years that the blockade is against more than weapons and is in fact depriving Palestinians of the basic necessities to live. This has been thoroughly investigated and established on multiple occasions by reputed international organisations and charities who have unilaterally condemned the blockade as illegal. We don't need to wait for the US to give an opinion, which not suprisingly they have with-held for purely political reasons.

    Israel has pubicly and openly blocked aid flotillas on several occasions. Israeli officials have even commented that the blockade has been deliberately used to "put pressure" on Hamas. That itself is as much a terrorist action as firing rockets into an area.

    Yes, I can agree with this.

    Yet to powerlessly tolerate continued aggression and restriction from Israel at enormous human cost seems to be what is expected of Palestine, unless they are to be labelled "aggressors" or "equally responsible".

    Israel's attacks are largely disproportionate and definitely inaccurate - Agreed

    The prevalence and extent of Hamas' extremism I think, yes, is intensified by Israeli activity but it's roots are in the Muslim brotherhood of Egypt . An organisation with far less personal motive to eliminate Israel than Palestinians which somewhat removes the foundation of its extremism from the context of Israeli oppression.

    Both sides continue to justify the polarisation of opinions of civilians and military personnel which I turn is driving the decline in humane treatment on the ground (Israeli settlers on Arabs in the West Bank and vice versa, Israeli soldiers in Palestinians etc).

    From interviews I've seen on the ground in Gaza and Israel, a large number of civilians still want peace, even some Israeli soldiers. Unsurprisingly, due to the Israeli settlers smack bang in the middle of 600,000 angry Palestinians, it is in the West Bank where tensions between civilians are at their worst and conflict and common assault on the street between civilians is a daily occurrence. It was of course here where the kidnappings and murders occurred.

    I disagree that skepticism and witholding judgement are inappropriate. I know what I think and I think that Israel and Hamas are committing war crimes, the complete nature and extent of that I reserve judgement on until proven by an unbiased investigation.

    No one expects Palestine to powerlessly tolerate Israeli aggression, if Hamas agree to the perfectly reasonable ceasefire proposals that Israel have already previously agreed to the war would end. No mediator has suggested "Israel should be allowed to continue blockades and military action and Hamas + Palestinians should stop complaining"
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    From the Hamas Charter - Article 13...

    "Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas].
    There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

    Also, from article 7
    "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

    How is lasting peace possible with these attitudes?
    (None of this excuses the IDF's actions, BTW)
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    These Israeli, did you go ask them when and why they settled in that area? Most of them CHOSE to live there.

    The Palestinians had no choice
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    (Original post by SyedAreYouDumb)
    Also Israel are at fault as Hamas just wants life to be fair for its people,
    Wrong.

    From the Hamas Charter
    Intro
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

    Article 13
    "Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas].
    There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

    Also, from article 7
    "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    So the Palestinians wouldn't care about Israel existing? Israel wouldn't care about being attacked?

    Look with your eyes and head, not with your pre-conceived notions.
    Israel would have never been created were it not for religion. The whole conflict stems from religion.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Wrong.

    From the Hamas Charter
    Intro
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

    Article 13
    "Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas].
    There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

    Also, from article 7
    "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"


    Senior leaders of Hamas has pointed out that they no longer held their charter high - that it is a historical document now - one that was written in war for war. Hamas has since then evolved.

    Do you think that the government of Israel wants a two state solution?
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    If religion was not around, the 'holy land' would be no more significant to the world than Dorset.
    DO NOT disrespect Dorset! It is indeed a sacred and holy land (to some). Repent, or the Cerne Abbas Giant will beat you about the head with his massive weapon!
 
 
 
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