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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Additionally note, there are multiple ways around each *******, Israel chooses the easy one, i.e. use explosives. Explain the need to bomb buildings and make tanks fire shells at buildings full of civilians rather than using a bullet to achieve the same end? Slightly higher risk, substantially easier, prevents international outcry.
    You want more Israelis to die in order to save palestinians?

    I'm sorry. This is the real world, not some deluded leftist version. Countries put their own citizens and own soldiers first. Top priority.

    Anyway, the fact Israel has lost 50 soldiers when they could just level the place, is a testament to them trying to root out terrorists.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    You want more Israelis to die in order to save palestinians?
    Yes and no; yes given it should lead to substantially lower civilian casualties, no beacuse it's still dead people (although I would say 1 IDF soldier is worth a lot less than several Palestinian civilians given no individual is inherently worth more than any other).

    I'm sorry. This is the real world, not some deluded leftist version. Countries put their own citizens and own soldiers first. Top priority.
    And to say that you seem to think that a civilian casualty ratio of 0 is impossible in the real world, consider the Anglo-Zanzibar War had they had weapons with today's precision.

    Anyway, the fact Israel has lost 50 soldiers when they could just level the place, is a testament to them trying to root out terrorists.
    Not really, they could level the place, but I doubt that Israel would last much longer afterwards, the current government at the very least.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Land for peace does not work. They gave Gaza over and got more terrorism than ever.
    They did not give Gaza over. Aside from the siege, an occupation ends when a peace treaty is signed and sovereignty established/re-established. Gaza has neither. By contrast, the 'Land for peace' deal with Egypt provided both. Even on a purely practical level, the disengagement from Gaza was a unilateral decision, not a negotiated one.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    They did not give Gaza over. Aside from the siege, an occupation ends when a peace treaty is signed and sovereignty established/re-established. Gaza has neither. By contrast, the 'Land for peace' deal with Egypt provided both. Even on a purely practical level, the disengagement from Gaza was a unilateral decision, not a negotiated one.
    Excuses, excuses, excuses.

    More excuses for terrorism, looking for any small reason to excuse rampant terrorism.

    So let's say the disengagement from Gaza wasn't 100% perfect for them.

    Surely any normal people would have seized the chance to prove they can govern?

    The blockade came 2 years after pulling out. Rockets attacks poured in despite borders being open.

    After 38 years, Israel pulled out - people like you will then look for any reason to excuse terrorism.

    If they hadn't resorted to relentless terrorism and devoted their time to building Gaza, they would have had a functional airport by now.

    Mass rockets and tunnel attacks is not a legitimate response to some 'issues' with the disengagement.

    Anyway, anyone with a brain knows this is about Islamic supremacy and the need to dominate. Giving land will not satiate Islam until it controls all.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i know - . it started as you confirmed above, because hamas launched rackets in response to 2 protestor killings. please dont backtrack now that youve had a chance to read what you posted and dont like the sound of it
    which palestinian youth was that exactly? if it was 1 presumably hamas was prepared to sacrifice 450 additonal palestinians to retaliate for this one kiilling - thats the basic maths they work on yes?
    Don't know why you're putting words in my mouth, I think I said what I meant to say very clearly and unambiguously, no use you trying to muddle yourself and others and trying to muddle me too along the way

    I never justified Hamas's actions, I simply stated facts that have been widely overlooked since Israel starting bombing its way into Gaza and terrorising its inhabitants

    I said that many pro-Israel media outlets would like you to believe that Israel is defending itself against escalated rocket attacks from 'terrorists'. But the facts are that Israel is not conducting the current operation in Gaza solely for reasons of 'defence' against an escalation of Hamas rockets. You need to know how it all started, you cannot pick an incident from the middle of the story and use it as the start. The escalation of Hamas rocket attacks was not the start of the road to Israeli full-scale terrorism in Gaza

    And some news outlets said it was because of the 3 Israeli settlers Israel insisted were kidnapped by Hamas (but later confirmed that they were not) that started this full-scale Israeli terrorism in Gaza, but it did not start with the kidnapping of those three settlers either

    It started with Israeli terrorism in the form of the widespread killing and abuse of Palestinian youth since the beginning of the year 2014, in particular during Nakba Day protests (you seem unaware that during the beginning of the year there was widespread unrest in the Palestinian territories and the fact that the news picked them up exacerbated the unrest obviously to the disadvantage of the Zionist enemy) to which Hamas retaliated in whatever way they wished and which I am not attempting to justify. Israel is responding to Hamas's retaliation

    Like I have already said, Israel is not responding to Hamas terrorism, Israel is responding to Hamas's response to Israeli terrorism with still more terrorism

    #FREEPALESTINEFROMZIONISTTERROR #MAYTHEZIONISTTERRORISTSROT
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    Hamas was created by Israel!

    Think of it, Hamas would not exist if there was no Israel.
    Think of it, who benefits from Hamas's rocket attacks? Israel does! Israel gets an excuse to do some more killing! Israel and Hamas are best buddies. They both have the same goals, and those are to wipe out each other! Who benefits from these goals? Israel! Because Israel can accomplish its goal and Hamas can't.
    Think of it, they're both always using religious rhetoric, the only difference is that Hamas uses Islamic rhetoric and Israel uses Jewish rhetoric.

    The Hamas-Israel conflict is riddled with circular arguments.
    Israel attacks Palestine because Hamas rockets Israel, and it's Hamas's fault that Israel kills innocent Palestinian babies.
    Hamas attacks Israel because Israel is not lifting the blockade on Gaza, so it's Israel's fault that Israeli civilians are in danger of Hamas rocket attacks.
    The only one not benefitting from Hamas is Palestinians. Israel IS benefitting from Hamas.
    Palestinians are being killed by Israel! Israel has an excuse in Hamas to kill Palestinians!

    Conclusion: Israel created Hamas.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    It's not possible to fight a war without civilian casualties. I'm not sure how leftists managed to create this environment whereby people expect zero-casualty wars.

    The British are currently killing civilians in Afghanistan. The difference is that due Britain does not come in for the same scrutiny as Israel. The BBC is not camped outside Afghan hospitals showing injured kids - but civilians are dying.



    This is overstated much like when people make the statement that the US "created Al Qaeda" because they armed some cave-dwellers against the Soviets.



    A whole different animal. At no point did the Irish declare their stated aim as being the destruction of the UK and the genocide of its people.

    Additionally, N.I was British territory and the people living there were therefore British. They could not bombard their own towns and cities.

    Make no mistake, if the UK suffered daily rocket attacks of 150 rockets per day where British nationals were spending half their lives in bomb shelters - Ireland would be in ruins - just like Germany was after V2 rocket attacks.
    all very good points, but can banky moon really help?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

    Interesting.

    So when this vacant school which is surrounded by other UN schools which serve as shelters is hit by the IDF, we will hear the usual propaganda 'IDF has hit a UN school, damaging two others and injuring civilians.'

    I wonder why the IDF, those evil creatures, would randomly bomb a school! It couldn't POSSIBLY be because they've placed weapons in a civilian area, could it? (An example of using human shields, for those unaware of it, by the way).
    (Original post by MJK91)
    It's been a common tactic of Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza for many years. It makes excellent propaganda—as apparent by reading anything on this thread or by attending any protest.

    "Israel murdering children", they cite. Blindly ignoring the reality.
    How nice, justifying terrorism. I hope you two realise that you are attempting to justify terrorism because of terrorism.

    'Israel murdering children' IS the reality. Israel murdering children unconcernedly and unashamedly. Israel seeking justification for murdering children. That IS the reality.

    If anyone is blindly ignoring reality that would be the inhuman monsters seeking to justify murder of children.
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    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    How nice, justifying terrorism. I hope you two realise that you are attempting to justify terrorism because of terrorism.

    'Israel murdering children' IS the reality. Israel murdering children unconcernedly and unashamedly. Israel seeking justification for murdering children. That IS the reality.

    If anyone is blindly ignoring reality that would be the inhuman monsters seeking to justify murder of children.
    In the words of Dara O'Brien, "your choice of words put you pretty firmly in one camp rather than the other". Clearly biased.

    I'm not a Jew, I'm not Jewish, I'm not a Muslim and and I'm not from the Middle East. I'm entitled to view the situation how I want, and to make the conclusions that I want.

    From the evidence I've seen, I think Hamas is to blame. I think on the whole Palestinians are being ****ed in the arse, and Israel are within their rights to defend from consistent rocket attacks.

    Hamas are the ones setting up around the civilian populace. I get that they're being squeezed by Israeli tunnel enforcements, but that's the point. If Hamas laid down arms and stopped their demands of ending the Israeli state, there could be a peace treaty and a return to normality. But they never will, because "God".

    If you have conclusive evidence (from a non-biased source please) that Israel are actively targetting children (where Hamas are not based), I would like to see it.
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    (Original post by MJK91)
    In the words of Dara O'Brien, "your choice of words put you pretty firmly in one camp rather than the other". Clearly biased.

    I'm not a Jew, I'm not Jewish, I'm not a Muslim and and I'm not from the Middle East. I'm entitled to view the situation how I want, and to make the conclusions that I want.
    Did I say you weren't entitled to your opinion? Lol I don't know why but I've noticed that most of you pro-Israel people are more often than not in hysterics
    (Original post by MJK91)
    From the evidence I've seen, I think Hamas is to blame. I think on the whole Palestinians are being ****ed in the arse, and Israel are within their rights to defend from consistent rocket attacks.
    Lol much evidence you've seen if after seeing all of it all you can come up is with the BS argument that Israel is 'defending' itself

    (Original post by MJK91)
    Hamas are the ones setting up around the civilian populace. I get that they're being squeezed by Israeli tunnel enforcements, but that's the point. If Hamas laid down arms and stopped their demands of ending the Israeli state, there could be a peace treaty and a return to normality. But they never will, because "God".
    Lol sure it looks like you've seen a lot of dubious 'evidence' if you think Hamas wants Israel to cease existing when Hamas today certainly does NOT want that all it wants is the Gaza blockade to be lifted
    Lol 'because "God"'??? What does Israel exist for? 'Because God gave that land to the Jews', that's why. Can't believe the amount of hypocrisy in the world
    Does Hamas seriously look like al-qaeda to you??? That's just another BS argument the Israeli govrnment invented to garner support against its opposition

    (Original post by MJK91)
    If you have conclusive evidence (from a non-biased source please) that Israel are actively targetting children (where Hamas are not based), I would like to see it.
    I'd like to see your conclusive evidence about Hamas hiding amongst civilians that BS excuse Israel uses to bomb civilians
    What, rockets stashed amongst civilians (that Hamas denied stashing) counts as evidence for that?
    Good, then crazy numbers of dead and injured Palestinian children counts as evidence for Israel killing children. Also Israel bombing a school they knew civilians were being sheltered in, also a refugee camp and hospitals, yep Israel sounds very like a criminal

    'actively targetting' nice wordplay there. Israel did not target the children it has so far murdered 'inactively' or 'by mistake' Israel knew FULL WELL that they were there and they batted not an eyelash because 'collateral damage' and because thy know they have a good excuse 'Hamas made us do it' and they know they will have supporters that will attempt to justify their atrocities (like yourself)
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    (Original post by MJK91)
    In the words of Dara O'Brien, "your choice of words put you pretty firmly in one camp rather than the other". Clearly biased.

    I'm not a Jew, I'm not Jewish, I'm not a Muslim and and I'm not from the Middle East. I'm entitled to view the situation how I want, and to make the conclusions that I want.

    From the evidence I've seen, I think Hamas is to blame. I think on the whole Palestinians are being ****ed in the arse, and Israel are within their rights to defend from consistent rocket attacks.

    Hamas are the ones setting up around the civilian populace. I get that they're being squeezed by Israeli tunnel enforcements, but that's the point. If Hamas laid down arms and stopped their demands of ending the Israeli state, there could be a peace treaty and a return to normality. But they never will, because "God".

    If you have conclusive evidence (from a non-biased source please) that Israel are actively targetting children (where Hamas are not based), I would like to see it.
    Nice to see you've at least stopped attempting to justify the murder of innocent little children though
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    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    Lol sure it looks like you've seen a lot of dubious 'evidence' if you think Hamas wants Israel to cease existing when Hamas today certainly does NOT want that all it wants is the Gaza blockade to be lifted
    Lol 'because "God"'??? What does Israel exist for? 'Because God gave that land to the Jews', that's why. Can't believe the amount of hypocrisy in the world
    Does Hamas seriously look like al-qaeda to you??? That's just another BS argument the Israeli govrnment invented to garner support against its opposition


    I'd like to see your conclusive evidence about Hamas hiding amongst civilians that BS excuse Israel uses to bomb civilians
    What, rockets stashed amongst civilians (that Hamas denied stashing) counts as evidence for that?
    Good, then crazy numbers of dead and injured Palestinian children counts as evidence for Israel killing children. Also Israel bombing a school they knew civilians were being sheltered in, also a refugee camp and hospitals, yep Israel sounds very like a criminal
    What are you rambling on about? I never mentioned Al'Queda. I don't see a single link of evidence in your post by the way. Still waiting!

    As for evidence that Hamas uses rockets where civilians are: http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

    UNRWA are one of the main sources of Palestinian aid, so don't try and pull the "biased source" card.

    So, where's your evidence?


    Nice to see you've at least stopped attempting to justify the murder of innocent little children though
    Nice strawman. Try again plz.
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    (Original post by MJK91)
    What are you rambling on about? I never mentioned Al'Queda. I don't see a single link of evidence in your post by the way. Still waiting!

    As for evidence that Hamas uses rockets where civilians are: http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

    UNRWA are one of the main sources of Palestinian aid, so don't try and pull the "biased source" card.

    So, where's your evidence?
    Lol well done on ignoring EVERYTHING else in my post.
    As I have already said:

    I'd like to see your conclusive evidence about Hamas hiding amongst civilians that BS excuse Israel uses to bomb civilians
    What, rockets stashed amongst civilians (that Hamas denied stashing) counts as evidence for that? (yep that link you linked, it makes no mention of 'Hamas rockets' and in an interview last week Hamas denied stashing rockets in schools but of course who will believe 'terrorists'? they lied about how they were not involving with the kidnapping of those 3 israeli settlers too, didn't they?)
    Good, then crazy numbers of dead and injured Palestinian children counts as evidence for Israel killing children. Also Israel bombing a school they knew civilians were being sheltered in, also a refugee camp and hospitals, yep Israel sounds very like a criminal
    Find yourself a UNRWA link telling you how many thousands of children have been inured by Israel strikes and how many hundreds murdered and there you have your evidence

    'actively targetting' nice wordplay there. Israel did not target the children it has so far murdered 'inactively' or 'by mistake' Israel knew FULL WELL that they were there and they batted not an eyelash because 'collateral damage' and because thy know they have a good excuse 'Hamas made us do it' and they know they will have supporters that will attempt to justify their atrocities (like yourself)

    Conclusion: Your evidence is as conclusive as mine
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    (Original post by MJK91)


    Nice strawman. Try again plz.
    Do you even know what 'strawman' means? Lol, if that sounds like a 'strawman' to you then it doesn't look like you do.
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    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    I'd like to see your conclusive evidence about Hamas hiding amongst civilians that BS excuse Israel uses to bomb civilians
    What, rockets stashed amongst civilians (that Hamas denied stashing) counts as evidence for that? (yep that link you linked, it makes no mention of 'Hamas rockets' and in an interview last week Hamas denied stashing rockets in schools but of course who will believe 'terrorists'? they lied about how they were not involving with the kidnapping of those 3 israeli settlers too, didn't they?)
    Good, then crazy numbers of dead and injured Palestinian children counts as evidence for Israel killing children. Also Israel bombing a school they knew civilians were being sheltered in, also a refugee camp and hospitals, yep Israel sounds very like a criminal


    Are you incapable of seeing that a very densely populated piece of land is going to have militants, who don't have army bases, set up around civilians? Where else do you think they are, on flying clouds? I've showed you a link that says they set up around schools. Clearly blinded by your pro-Islam agenda.

    When I refer to Hamas, I mean Hamas + other militant groups in the strip. Each are equally responsible, but Hamas are the largest and were voted in.

    Also Israel bombing a school they knew civilians were being sheltered in, also a refugee camp and hospitals, yep Israel sounds very like a criminal


    Last time I looked, they'd ordered evacuations. I imagine Hamas forced them to stay. Any links to suggest otherwise or will you keep rambling on without evidence? Yeah, thought as much.

    Find yourself a UNRWA link telling you how many thousands of children have been inured by Israel strikes and how many hundreds murdered and there you have your evidence
    I don't dispute the deaths. I dispute their cause.

    'actively targetting' nice wordplay there. Israel did not target the children it has so far murdered 'inactively' or 'by mistake' Israel knew FULL WELL that they were there and they batted not an eyelash because 'collateral damage' and because thy know they have a good excuse 'Hamas made us do it' and they know they will have supporters that will attempt to justify their atrocities (like yourself)

    Conclusion: Your evidence is as conclusive as mine


    Well, it is important wording. They order evacuations and people don't evacuate. They ask for Hamas to stop firing rockets, and they don't. They can't do much else other than ask for civilians to move 24 hours in advance. What do people think will happen when bombs start falling?

    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    Do you even know what 'strawman' means? Lol, if that sounds like a 'strawman' to you then it doesn't look like you do.
    Yes, it's when you argue a point that wasn't made by the person you're debating with. Read up on it sometime.

    To summarise: if you don't have any links to show me, shut up. You're clearly biased and I can't be bothered arguing with your POV without evidence.
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    (Original post by MJK91)


    Are you incapable of seeing that a very densely populated piece of land is going to have militants, who don't have army bases, set up around civilians? Where else do you think they are, on flying clouds? I've showed you a link that says they set up around schools. Clearly blinded by your pro-Islam agenda.
    That link shows nothing. Can you quote exactly where it says that Hamas sets up around schools? Don't bother, as there is nothing for you to quote
    And actually, for argument's sake assuming Hamas do operate from civilian sites, yep you'd be right, where does Israel expect them to operate from, seventh heaven? How can Israel excuse its atrocities by saying Hamas operates from civilian sites when Gaza is so densely populated that Hamas has no choice but to?
    (Original post by MJK91)
    When I refer to Hamas, I mean Hamas + other militant groups in the strip. Each are equally responsible, but Hamas are the largest and were voted in.
    Meh how is this relevant?


    (Original post by MJK91)
    Last time I looked, they'd ordered evacuations. I imagine Hamas forced them to stay. Any links to suggest otherwise or will you keep rambling on without evidence? Yeah, thought as much.
    Weren't Israelis ordered off what is rightfully Palestinian land long ago? So Hamas is justified in bombing Israel going by your argument, because Israelis have been ordered off stolen land, yeah?
    Oh and by the way it is against international law to bomb civilians. Whether you order them out of their homes (when you have no right to) or don't is irrelevant, it is still a crime to bomb civilians

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9619810.html
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-30448511.html
    'I imagine' well the world could do without your imagination, as there is no evidence to say that they were forced, in fact there's evidence to say they weren't forced at all, there's evidence to say that THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO IN GAZA, IT IS BLOCKADED FROM ALL FOUR SIDES. what do you want Gazans to do to save their lives, sprout wings and flap away or something?

    Lol much 'evidence' you've produced (none in case you're wondering)


    (Original post by MJK91)
    I don't dispute the deaths. I dispute their cause.
    Never said you disputed them, only condemned you for attempting feebly to justify them



    (Original post by MJK91)
    Well, it is important wording. They order evacuations and people don't evacuate. They ask for Hamas to stop firing rockets, and they don't. They can't do much else other than ask for civilians to move 24 hours in advance. What do people think will happen when bombs start falling?
    It did not start with Hamas firing rockets, it started with Zionist terrorism in the form of killing Palestinian youth simply for protesting, the two teenagers who were shot dead and their cousin who was beaten up so animalistically that he emerged from prison horribly disfigured on camera, but of course you don't know anything about that, who cares about palestinian youth being beaten up, tell us about the israelis being put in danger by hamas's rocketfire (actually hamas fires rockets because israel doesn't lift the blockade on gaza)


    (Original post by MJK91)
    Yes, it's when you argue a point that wasn't made by the person you're debating with. Read up on it sometime.
    I wasn't arguing a point, I was thanking you for having halted even if only for a little while justification of murder that you were doing in the post I first quoted you in, look it up sometime
    (Original post by MJK91)
    To summarise: if you don't have any links to show me, shut up. You're clearly biased and I can't be bothered arguing with your POV without evidence.
    Your link doesn't prove that Hamas hides rockets amongst civilians. You're deluded if you think it does and in denial. I think you're aware that it doesn't prove that Hamas hides amongst civilians because you're not even quoting the bit where it explicitly says that Hamas does that (obviously because there is no such bit)
    Open guardian.co.uk and you'll see plenty evidence on that link you so crave of Israel committing atrocities against humanity
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    It's worth noting that the palestinians are masters of deception and manipulation. Hence the term 'Pallywood'.

    Many of the pictures we see are orchestrated. They're also very adept at drawing fire towards their own civilians.

    People in the west can't seem to comprehend it, which is why they blame Israel - but Hamas actively seek the deaths of palestinain civilians. If children are killed this is a bonus for them.

    They have no diplomatic clout other than civilian deaths. If only Hamas terrorists were dying with negligible civilian casualties, very few people (bar the rabid anti-Israelis) would care. Israel would be free to wipe Hamas out. Their diplomatic currency is civilian deaths.

    It's a very callous form of terrorism - and the thought of Hamas doing this to fill their empty coffers with donations is even more sickening.

    But that's terrorists for you.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    It's worth noting that the palestinians are masters of deception and manipulation. Hence the term 'Pallywood'.

    Many of the pictures we see are orchestrated. They're also very adept at drawing fire towards their own civilians.

    People in the west can't seem to comprehend it, which is why they blame Israel - but Hamas actively seek the deaths of palestinain civilians. If children are killed this is a bonus for them.

    They have no diplomatic clout other than civilian deaths. If only Hamas terrorists were dying with negligible civilian casualties, very few people (bar the rabid anti-Israelis) would care. Israel would be free to wipe Hamas out. Their diplomatic currency is civilian deaths.

    It's a very callous form of terrorism - and the thought of Hamas doing this to fill their empty coffers with donations is even more sickening.

    But that's terrorists for you.
    What is this, a hasbara lesson?
    'Pallywood' is a term used exclusively by the Zionist enemy.
    It is actually the Zionists who are renowned for their unabashed and government-scale deception, hence the term 'Hasbara'. Both 'Pallywood' and 'hasbara' are Zionist terms. Zionists are the deceiving ones. So deceiving are they that they want to deceive the world into believing that they are not the deceivers but their victims are. Unlucky for them that the world is not as stupid as to believe their lies for much longer
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    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    What is this, a hasbara lesson?
    'Pallywood' is a term used exclusively by the Zionist enemy.
    It is actually the Zionists who are renowned for their unabashed and government-scale deception, hence the term 'Hasbara'. Both 'Pallywood' and 'hasbara' are Zionist terms. Zionists are the deceiving ones. So deceiving are they that they want to deceive the world into believing that they are not the deceivers but their victims are. Unlucky for them that the world is not as stupid as to believe their lies for much longer
    "Hasbara" means to 'explain'. i.e to explain Israel's position.

    After all, that's what this thread is about. pro-palestinians giving their position and pro-Israelis giving theirs.

    'Pallywood' is a widely used term, as it's so prevalent.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    "Hasbara" means to 'explain'. i.e to explain Israel's position.

    After all, that's what this thread is about. pro-palestinians giving their position and pro-Israelis giving theirs.

    'Pallywood' is a widely used term, as it's so prevalent.
    Oh I'm aware of that all right, also that 'Hasbara' is a Hebrew euphemism for 'propaganda' tellingly enough, and also of the deceptive methods the Zionist enemy uses to further its propaganda, and also that the world is gladly becoming aware of all of that little by little, and thank the Lord for that.
    Of course you think 'Pallywood' is a widely used term, in fact it is only widely used in Zionist circles and it is only natural for propagandists who have gone through the Hasbara machine to consider it 'prevalent'
 
 
 
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