The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Alawii are not Muslim - they believe Ali (RA) is a manifestation of Allah, which takes them out of the fold of Islam. In Western sources, they are classed as a branch of Islam, but in reality that just means that they originally were influenced by it, but that does not mean they have any Islamic link. They originate from Shia but have diverted that bit too far away from Shi'ism to be considered a sect of Islam.

    The hatred between the Shia and Sunnis goes back centuries, and it will not stop until the end days. Unfortunately to say that Allah is one, and Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah is not always sufficient to avoid conflict, or perhaps you might like to argue that we should not fight the Khawarij (like ISIS)? The differences between Sunnis and Shia is too great, and the way we understand the Quran is not even the same. The Ummah can only unite on the haqq, and to be united on the haqq is to have the same aqeedah. Unity with one another when not on the truth is how Islam destroys itself from within. An interesting observation I have from watching speakers on YouTube: the speakers from the deviant groups are the ones who call for unity the most, whereas those who I would say have more correct beliefs tend to say that we can only unite on the truth and on good.



    Akhi, you said that we should all believe in the Quran and the messenger in your previous post, and what scholars do is using the Quran and the sayings of the messenger in order to assess if groups or figures are calling people astray or to the truth. To tell people to stay away from such and such (e.g. Nawaz) is for the benefit of the Muslims so that they do not lose their Islam. The issue is that some people become harsh or hard of heart when dealing with others (which is probably what you are angry with), but do not be deceived just because someone seems nice. Majid Nawaz actively and publically calls people to falsehood but brands it as Islam, getting support from other hypocrites and ex-Muslims, so he is a munafiq.
    Any one who accepts Allah, the Quran and Muhammad, prays and fasts is Muslim to me. If we say that someone is not a Muslim because they dont do this or do that then we end up like ISIS. Just because some people do this it doesnt mean thet we all have to. As far as I can see Majid Nawaz is only calling us away from conflict and violence so Allah would approve of his message. I would rather listen to someone saying stop the hate and kiling that listen to someone saying carry on the the hate and killing. Maybe I dont understand Islam properly or maybe it is people like you and Ideas for life who donrt understand it.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Alawii are not Muslim - they believe Ali (RA) is a manifestation of Allah, which takes them out of the fold of Islam. In Western sources, they are classed as a branch of Islam, but in reality that just means that they originally were influenced by it, but that does not mean they have any Islamic link. They originate from Shia but have diverted that bit too far away from Shi'ism to be considered a sect of Islam.

    The hatred between the Shia and Sunnis goes back centuries, and it will not stop until the end days. Unfortunately to say that Allah is one, and Muhammad (SAW) is the messenger of Allah is not always sufficient to avoid conflict, or perhaps you might like to argue that we should not fight the Khawarij (like ISIS)? The differences between Sunnis and Shia is too great, and the way we understand the Quran is not even the same. The Ummah can only unite on the haqq, and to be united on the haqq is to have the same aqeedah. Unity with one another when not on the truth is how Islam destroys itself from within. An interesting observation I have from watching speakers on YouTube: the speakers from the deviant groups are the ones who call for unity the most, whereas those who I would say have more correct beliefs tend to say that we can only unite on the truth and on good.
    So essentially you are advocating for a separate Sunni society? I can speak to the moderation team about that if you want. Ultimately though, this I-Soc is intended to be a non-sectarian society. I would like to remind you that the I-Soc OP explicitly states:

    This thread is intended to be all-inclusive so please be sure to be welcoming and friendly to all the members within this thread, whether there are differences of belief, opinion or anything else.
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    (Original post by Nuba123)
    No idea what's going on up in here. :d
    Ive had enough of all the hatred and fighting between Muslims. If someone believes in Allah, the Quran, Muhammad and they pray and fast and treat others with kindness I am happy to call them brother or sister. I dont care what name some people call them.
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    What's wrong with you guys? Can't you just stop this whole secterian matter which pops up every month in this thread. You're old enough to know what to do when one person is being ridiculous about this all. I find it hard to understand why some seem to carry on sharing their views knowing it wont achieve anything.

    Look at this beautiful bird instead.

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    I think that bird could be a Shia tbh.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Awesome, how was your day?

    I think I acted a bit like that when I was new too.
    It's been okay so far, just hope it goes like this. What about you?
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    What's wrong with you guys? Can't you just stop this whole secterian matter which pops up every month in this thread. You're old enough to know what to do when one person is being ridiculous about this all. I find it hard to understand why some seem to carry on sharing their views knowing it wont achieve anything.

    Look at this beautiful bird instead.

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    Masha Allah!

    Aren't you supposed to be in lesson? :erm:

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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    You are more sectarian than me - cheeky little Takfiri saying that there are no sects in Islam because you are implying deviants aren't Muslim :teehee:
    Noooo ideaaaa what you just said :innocent:

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    I am actually being serious, idk why I remembered him then? 🙃
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    but honestly, I just fear bid'ah. May allah keep us on the straight path. Ameen.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Masha Allah!

    Aren't you supposed to be in lesson? :erm:

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    Yes but I'm not

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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    So essentially you are advocating for a separate Sunni society? I can speak to the moderation team about that if you want. Ultimately though, this I-Soc is intended to be a non-sectarian society. I would like to remind you that the I-Soc OP explicitly states:
    Your creative interpretation skills are at work again I see; I never said I wanted a Sunni Society.

    This is the established de facto matter of play:

    - Sunnis and Shia will equally view each other as deviants (according to scholars; idc about individual personal opinions).

    - When it comes to arguing specific inter-sect issues, that can be taken to another thread.

    - Whether one posts from a Sunni source of a Shia source, no one can tell them to not post that there.

    - Admitting we have differences and that our sects view each other as deviants is fine because the world isn't all flower chains and rainbows and we are mature enough to accept that we are not the same. To target a specific individual and call them a deviant is bad manners.

    - Generally one should avoid making takfir on the other group; some groups e.g. Alawii or others, do not constitute as being Muslims outright as their beliefs violate the absolute foundations of Islam according to both Sunni and Shia who collectively make up the Muslim population around the world, so one may clarify that these groups are not Muslims if it is necessary.
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    What's wrong with you guys? Can't you just stop this whole secterian matter which pops up every month in this thread. You're old enough to know what to do when one person is being ridiculous about this all. I find it hard to understand why some seem to carry on sharing their views knowing it wont achieve anything.

    Look at this beautiful bird instead.

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    I have dealt with the whole sect thing in real life with my own friend....and I totally agree with you, although we should convey the message and then leave the rest for them to think about. SubhanAllah, the bird, what a creation <3
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    I used to believe this when I was agnostic before I was Muslim; on reflection, I found it to be a cop out answer with little basis and is just an answer picked because it's easy to roll off the tongue - after preliminary reseach, I have never found any evidence to suggest that religion was used purposefully as a tool just to gain power and use to control people by the founders of the religion, although scholars, popes, clergy etc have used religion to do so much later after the religion was founded.

    Fundamentally this means that there is no reason to reject a religion on this practices or beliefs of certain religious sects in various religions etc.
    basis, although it could cause one to question certain things which came after the religion e.g. the legitimacy of the Papacy in Christianity, the
    From my experience/opinion, there comes a certain point when people are so keen to understand things with their intellect that they end up stumbling over it and end up either intellectually dishonest or unable to grasp the finer the details of concepts or religions; naturally I am not implying you do this at all, but I am saying that oftentimes this is my observation.
    Sorry for the late reply bro

    It depends on which religion and which religious leader you are talking about. I would be very interested to see the sources you have utilised to conduct your research and the level of variety/provenance they have. With Jesus for example, there are varying theories on what sort of man he was- from a historical perspective, he could have been one of the thousands of messianic figures at the time but one whose followers survived the test of time and grew, he could have been a racist or maybe a peacemaker or according to some, he may not have even existed.

    As far as Islam goes, the Prophet Muhammad certainly used it as a force to motivate his armies and people, justify his policies as being divinely sanctioned and impose his view of the world upon the Arabs.

    We can beat around this bush and many others for a very long time but ultimately it comes down to this- the faithful have to perform ludicrous mental gymnastics to convince themselves of the literal truthfulness of what they believe- if you were hearing stories about people being swallowed by Whales and staying alive for years, Noah's Ark and the Prophet's ascent to heaven for the first time then you would likely recommend the person telling them to a mental asylum.
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    (Original post by guided1)
    Any one who accepts Allah, the Quran and Muhammad, prays and fasts is Muslim to me. If we say that someone is not a Muslim because they dont do this or do that then we end up like ISIS.
    We do not. We only end up like ISIS if we take the Quran out of context and harshly apply judgments without hikmah which is what ISIS do. The Quran and Sunnah are criteria for Muslim which we use to assess situations and beliefs and practices, and that is how we establish what is correct or not.

    Just because some people do this it doesnt mean thet we all have to. As far as I can see Majid Nawaz is only calling us away from conflict and violence so Allah would approve of his message. I would rather listen to someone saying stop the hate and kiling that listen to someone saying carry on the the hate and killing. Maybe I dont understand Islam properly or maybe it is people like you and Ideas for life who donrt understand it.
    Majid Nawaz tells people to take their Hijab off for various reasons (encourages them to do Haram), he gets support from Atheists and ex-Muslims, and generally corrupts Islam, he's a self publicist who doesnt't care about being dutiful to Allah, so it doesn't matter if he wants peace, because he wants peace in exchange for Muslims selling Islam.

    You are saying 'so Allah would approve of his message', but the Quran and hadith would indicate otherwise. Respectfully I would advise you to learn more about Islam so you can understand it better, and InshaAllah I will continue to do the same, but I do emphatically reject Majid Nawaz being considered anything good for this Ummah.
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    Yes but I'm not

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    Didn't expect this from you :hmmm:

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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Your creative interpretation skills are at work again I see; I never said I wanted a Sunni Society.

    This is the established de facto matter of play:

    - Sunnis and Shia will equally view each other as deviants (according to scholars; idc about individual personal opinions).

    - When it comes to arguing specific inter-sect issues, that can be taken to another thread.

    - Whether one posts from a Sunni source of a Shia source, no one can tell them to not post that there.

    - Admitting we have differences and that our sects view each other as deviants is fine because the world isn't all flower chains and rainbows and we are mature enough to accept that we are not the same. To target a specific individual and call them a deviant is bad manners.

    - Generally one should avoid making takfir on the other group; some groups e.g. Alawii or others, do not constitute as being Muslims outright as their beliefs violate the absolute foundations of Islam according to both Sunni and Shia who collectively make up the Muslim population around the world, so one may clarify that these groups are not Muslims if it is necessary.
    Out of interest- why do you consider Shias to be deviant?

    Are all their sects deviant or just some?
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Didn't expect this from you :hmmm:

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    Too much traffic this morning. I got there late innit 😣
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    Too much traffic this morning. I got there late innit 😣
    Leave early then innit
    Plus you can sneak in :rolleyes:

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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Leave early then innit
    Plus you can sneak in :rolleyes:

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    I left extra early mate!
    I'm not going back in to see that grumpy roti face.

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