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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I mean that the development money we are giving to Afghanistan is in order for them to build a system through which they can be governed and stopped from harming our citizens. We need to be present in that country to make sure they are doing this, admittedly we aren't doing a good job. Pakistan is different. The head of state there is more willing to go about doing our bidding. Geopolitics is nothing new, and war is specifically designed to compel others to fulfil our wishes.

    War is the continuation of politics by other means as Clausewitz would say. He would also say war is designed to do 2 things:
    1) Achieve limited aims.
    2) To disarm the enemy.

    Where we are failing in this war is that we have not created limited aims, we have created unlimited aims. We are however somewhat succeeding in creating a system that systematically disarms the enemy on our behalf.
    this doesn't seem to be the case with pakistan...... (what you and others don't realise is that the "arms" which need to be disarmed is the islamic extremist ideology which stems from saudi and is spread across pakistan and the globe; even in britain). Giving billions to pakistan every year and at the same while lambasting them behind closed doors won't acheive anything.....
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    (Original post by bunty64)
    this doesn't seem to be the case with pakistan......
    You're right, it's not brilliant. They don't have the appropriate control over their own country to implement such a thing on our behalf really. It would never do to topple a state that isn't trying to stand in our way though, better to build it up. We also have very few available candidates to replace them with too... Out of interest I wonder if anyone knew that Muhammed Karzi (sp) is schizophrenic - a fine choice lol.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    This is a common argument atheists cling to, but it is patently untrue. There was no conscious effort to stifle scientific achievement. Science for the masses only came about when the printing press did, before which time no ordinary citizen had the ability to afford a book written by hand. Books and science were done by monks because they were the only people who could look away from their constant need for survival - in the same way all science in Greece was carried out primarily by the upper classes.
    well thats true and makes sense. i just find it funny how when islam was at its strongest there were a wealth of discoveries which are vital for development today (i think combine harvester made a point about this) but the best discoveries/inventions today are made in a society where Christianity are at its weakest or much much less than before...even though officially the state religion is Christianity.
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    (Original post by shark67)
    I bet they're regretting publishing pictures of Prophet Mohammed in their newspapers. The must be very ignorant if they weren't expecting some sort of retaliation.
    I doubt it. And are you seriously on the terrorists side? The drawings was 5 years ago. Sweden is a free country, they can publish whatever they want.
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    So your telling me that ALL muslims are terrorists right? is that what your saying? So the people that convert to Islam, are automatically terrorists? Americans, Europeans, Asians that have converted to Islam are terrorists? Just because a bunch of "terrorist attacks" are commited by muslims from A FEW muslim countries, makes ALL muslims terrorists right? But Americas attacks in Afghanistan & Iraq & god knows where else, is completely normal & in no way an attack? Grow the F up, open your eyes, stop believing everything the media portrays & start using your mind, think! What do you expect when a country, that happens to be dominated by muslims, is being attacked on to do? Sit there & take it? Its propaganda, the government controls the media & wants you to hear what they want. Seriously, grow up.
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    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    when islam was at its strongest
    What do you mean?

    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    there were a wealth of discoveries
    Like what?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    A great deal of our greatest scientists have been Christian, because most people were then. You can hardly argue on the one hand that Islam doesn't stifle science because it once dominated a state in which science was advanced, and on the flip side of that say Islam doesn't stifle science in the states it now presides over who have had zero scientific achievement in hundreds if not thousands of years. There is also the obvious problem that we will never know if Islamic scientists were atheists, because for them to say so in their Islamic states would have meant the death penalty. It seems Christianity in the comparison stakes is a victim of its own tolerance.
    Actually some philosophers during the Caliphate were openly critical of religion and questioned the existence of God (in fact to a greater extent than in Europe where many scientists were heavily persecuted by the church for putting forward theories which went against the bible), Omar Khayyam is an example. Currently an Islamic state does not exist, in the Middle East you have various forms of governance ranging from dictatorships to democracies which represent state interests rather than Islamic ones.
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    (Original post by DH-Biker)
    Hmm...
    "We must strike the West in their most vulnerable, economic point!"
    "Ahh yes, Brother, but where?"
    "Stockholm Shopping Centre, where else?"

    If I may say so, I love how they pick the most lush, juicy targets. They've really dropped game. 9/11 = big. 7/7 = less big. Glasgow Airport = Meh. Stockholm = Right, now you're just being silly.

    Still, in light of that, R.I.P to the person killed and I hope the other two survive.
    Haha, indeed.

    I didn't even know a person had been killed?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    You're right, it's not brilliant. They don't have the appropriate control over their own country to implement such a thing on our behalf really. It would never do to topple a state that isn't trying to stand in our way though, better to build it up. We also have very few available candidates to replace them with too... Out of interest I wonder if anyone knew that Muhammed Karzi (sp) is schizophrenic - a fine choice lol.
    It's a pointless task.... They can't build a gov/state..... have they not realised that from the past and now in iraq/afghanistan!
    Utterly pointless in giving pakistan billions a year, than whinging about them behind closed doors like little girls and putting on a front for the cameras. No wonder the pakistan prime minister told cameron to **** off after he tried to invite himeslf over after his recent tour of afghistan.......


    as for karzai; can't blame the poor guy.... anyone with the responsibility of governing afghanistan is bound to end up with a split mind!
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    (Original post by Wacp)
    What do you mean?



    Like what?
    when people were actually following islam..and by people i mean the leaders of states. please dont give pakistan or saudi arabia as an example of an islamic state just like if you wanted to show a christian state you wouldnt show the UK as an example, since the population and its leaders deviate so much from it. and when you say like what, i hope youre being sarcastic? im not going to say them all because i think you are but for instance, astronomy (nautical not the star signs!) , flow of blood in the human body (please dont say william harvey) algebra, maths...which is everywhere?
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Actually some philosophers during the Caliphate were openly critical of religion and questioned the existence of God (in fact to a greater extent than in Europe where many scientists were heavily persecuted by the church for putting forward theories which went against the bible), Omar Khayyam is an example.
    And, you support that, do you? You know, in an Islamic State, people being able to openly question and challenge Islam, and even the existence of a creator?
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    (Original post by Wacp)
    And, you support that, do you? You know, in an Islamic State, people being able to openly question and challenge Islam, and even the existence of a creator?
    They can and I do, in fact it is encouraged. It happened all the time during the inception of Islam in the Arabian peninsula >1400 years ago.
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    He didn't bomb a shopping centre. He blew himself up on the street. Get the facts right
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    (Original post by geransson)
    He didn't bomb a shopping centre. He blew himself up on the street. Get the facts right
    at least the dialogue is going back to the OPs thread
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    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    when people were actually following islam..and by people i mean the leaders of states.
    So, what are the leaders of the leaders of Muslim-majority countries are doing wrong today that, if corrected, would turn their countries into beacons of scientific and technological avancement?

    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    please dont give pakistan or saudi arabia as an example of an islamic state just like if you wanted to show a christian state you wouldnt show the UK as an example, since the population and its leaders deviate so much from it.
    That's a terrible comparison because the UK doesn't pretend to be a Christian state. It's a proudly secular, liberal democracy.

    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    and when you say like what, i hope youre being sarcastic?
    No, I wasn't.
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    Seems like this terrorist shot himself in the foot (so-to-speak).

    Here's a conspiracy theory for you:

    Maybe the far right in Europe or the CIA planned all this and gave this guy a faulty bomb so that it would only blow himself up. Why? Because then this would give more support to the far right in Sweden!

    Have you seen the film Machete? This is exactly what the plot of that film was. Coincidence?
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    They can and I do, in fact it is encouraged. It happened all the time during the inception of Islam in the Arabian peninsula >1400 years ago.
    So, people who say that leaving Islam is a crime in an Islamic State are wrong?
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    (Original post by Wacp)
    So, what are the leaders of the leaders of Muslim-majority countries are doing wrong today that, if corrected, would turn their countries into beacons of scientific and technological avancement?



    That's a terrible comparison because the UK doesn't pretend to be a Christian state. It's a proudly secular, liberal democracy.



    No, I wasn't.
    its hard to say what if, im sure we can only look at past evidence. when referring to the UK, its official religion is Christianity..it even has its own church, so the UK is a Christian state, and theres a lot of people here who would claim that. what people do and how they act in the state is another matter, right?
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    (Original post by Wacp)
    So, people who say that leaving Islam is a crime in an Islamic State are wrong?
    There's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "leaving Islam", in an Islamic state defecting from the state is a crime. If you switch allegiances from the Islamic state to another state then that's a crime. Read this article, it goes into detail: http://web.archive.org/web/200804152...rticle02.shtml
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    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    so the UK is a Christian state
    No, not really. No one would take you seriously if you said the UK is a monarchy, and the same goes if you claim the UK is a Christian state. We have a queen, but she is just a historic relic. The same goes for the Anglican church.

    (Original post by TheBrightShadow)
    and theres a lot of people here who would claim that.
    People who say the UK is a Christian country are usually referring to its, at least nominally, Christian majoriy population and Christian heritage. They don't mean it is a Christian country in the same sense that Muslims mean when they are referring to an Islamic state.
 
 
 
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