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"British culture": destroyed by immigrants? watch

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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Being told i'm beaten by two people who hate my views in general really doesn't mean anything.
    !!!!!! I've just been arguing in favour of equality of opportunity in the thread about poor people, and turned myself into a communist for the duration of the thread on egalitarian societies. Some of the things you say I vaguely agree with, others I don't, but the fundamental disagreement lies in your being so ****ing narrow-minded sometimes (!)
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    100% whit options? Where? 100% black options? Where? Since neanrly all inner city areas in Britain are home predominantly to ethnic minorites, i'd say your make-believe stats are screwed. Especially in the areas that immigrants are sent to by the government. They dont have the option of livig in a housing estate in Yorkshire, do they? The government places them. The government provides the lists. The have a MINIMAL choice- but that choice does not include the option of living anywhere other than a poor area- where all other immigrants live too. So, in short, clear language, they have no choice but to live near other immigrants. You are half-witted if you don't get that. Dont make yourself look any more stupid by trying to argue agaisnt it.
    Oh i see. Just because they're immigrants, they're inevitably poor and require council housing? Asian and Black people can have money too, racist.

    Unfortunatley, your argument falls down when you look outside the poorest in the inner city. I live in a predominantly middleclass area. Everyone here owns their own house, so noones been shoved here by the government. Unfortunatley, you see the same pattern you see in an inner city area like Stepney. The white families all seem to be moving out due to a number of very poor excuses, and every time a house comes up on the market it seems to immediately be snapped up by an Asian family. By the looks of things, the white families seem to be moving out to predominantly white areas, the Asian families seem to be constructing a new community here. As you would expect them both too.

    You see, the real problem here is just why do we have a society? Why don't we live in our own seperate little hovels, oin a state of anarchy? The answer probably lies in a couple of areas:We are social creatures, and to remain psychologically healthy most of us require contact with other human beings, and, at the same time, we've also learnt that, generally, we all benefit when we work together and share joint values and objectives. The problem with multiculturalism is that all too often it can be hard from people of different cultures to build meaningful relastionships and same time different value systems can so easily clash. Its not always a race thing. Is it not logical for a devoutly religious family to want to live with another devoutly religious family rather than a house full of noisy students who they would frequently clash with?

    Also, fear of the unknown is a very healthy thing. Last year I had a little robin come into my garden. He was probably the tamest wild bird i've ever seen. He'd probably have let you pick him up, if you wanted to. He certainly wasn't afraid of the unknown. Unfortunatley, he wasn't afraid of cats either. After a week or so he was dead. The same pretty much applies to humans too, when you think about it. If you see a guy in the street clutching a knife and having a violent argument with himself, is your gut instinct to march over and celebrate the diversity in each others social norms, or simply to keep away and infor the police/social services?
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    Two reasons that new immgrants are often confned into concentrated areas:

    1. As already stated: If their selection of choice is limited to a certain number of areas, no matter how dispersed these areas are, they are still going to be limited to these particular places. Of course once they've setlled in and began earning money this pattern can change but otherwise this is understandable.

    2. If you're moving to a foreign country, is it so unreasonable that you would be drawn towards people who you are more familiar with in terms of language and background? It doesn't necassarily express a lack of desire to integrate into British culture, but more a desire to make that change gradual. Furthermore you have large sections of the native population opposed to or uncomfortable with immigrants (this cannot be denied), and particularly you must consider that racism is much more rife in deprived areas which is where new immigrants are likely to be housed. If you were moving to a new country would you wish to be housed amongst people who are openly hostile, oftentimes violent towards you and where you know you are not wanted?

    Obviously that doesn't do any good for the cause of multiculturalism but I don't think yo can 'blame' immigrants for forming communities around people from their own background. Walk through any area where there is a mix between white and Islamic or Pakistani populations and take a look at the racist graffiti on any wall around you and you'll get a better picture.

    Anyway, that's a bit far off the mark from the original debate, we can't hold immigrants themselves responsible for them being concentrated in certain commmunities. We must consider what the impact of this is on British culture as a whole.

    Just to address a point made earlier about British music being popular across Europe, should we see this as a sign that British culture is destroying the culture of European nations? After all it is the same principle.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    2. If you're moving to a foreign country, is it so unreasonable that you would be drawn towards people who you are more familiar with in terms of language and background?

    Sod moving into a foreign country, is it not so unreasonable that, as a general rule, people are drawn towards people who share their culture and background?
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    (Original post by Andronicus Comnenus)
    Sod moving into a foreign country, is it not so unreasonable that, as a general rule, people are drawn towards people who share their culture and background?
    Naturally yes but that doesn't mean you don't intend to experience and become part of, a new culture.

    If you move to France out of pure lifestyle choice, you are doing so because you wish to adopt the lifestyle and culture of French society. You wish to become a part of that culture because you prefer it to your home culture. When you first move there you might wish to be with people with the same background and language as you, to ease the transition, EVEN though you wish to integrate yourself into French society. It doesn't necassarily mean multiculturalism can't work. And it certainly doesn't mean that you are going to enforce British values upon the French.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    If you move to France out of pure lifestyle choice, you are doing so because you wish to adopt the lifestyle and culture of French society. You wish to become a part of that culture because you prefer it to your home culture. When you first move there you might wish to be with people with the same background and language as you, to ease the transition, EVEN though you wish to integrate yourself into French society. It doesn't necassarily mean multiculturalism can't work. And it certainly doesn't mean that you are going to enforce British values upon the French.
    I take it you've never been to Benidorm then? The whole place is basically one big attempt to impose British culture on a small patch of Spain! You're right though. If i chose to move to France as a lifestyle choice, i would be keen to adopt the lifestyle. If i was seious about moving out there, however, i'd make sure that i knew the language before i left.

    The other problem is that a move from a Western European country to a Western European country as a lifestyle choice isn't a particuarly good example. For a start, the cultures in question actually quite similar (There are no major cultural clashes which make it difficult to integrate), but it also presumes that everyone who emigrates to the UK does so for lifestyle reasons. Surely not only do economic migrants play an important role, but they also have a dlightly different motivation?

    And it certainly doesn't mean that you are going to enforce British values upon the French.
    You're missing my point. 'OMG teh British values are teh gone!!!!' is just BNP-type scaremongering. My problem is not that 'British culture' will dissapear, my problem is by taking one vaguely homogenous community
    and adding another homogenous community next door, you are in fact just asking for trouble. The whole point of society is that everyone is supposed to share the same culture and values. That way, we are able to establish rules, laws, and norms which allow us to live together without being at each others throats, and this is the reason why at some inate genetic level we like being around people who share our world view.

    Im not saying that some form of multiculturalism cant exist, just saing it can't exist in its current form. The social problems wont go away if you just close your eyes. All that will happen if the government keeps telling people that they ARE happy and if that if they AREN'T happy that means they're RACIST is that disaffected young white men will shave their heads and beat random Asian pensioners to death, more disaffected young Muslims will strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up on public transport.
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    (Original post by Andronicus Comnenus)
    I take it you've never been to Benidorm then? The whole place is basically one big attempt to impose British culture on a small patch of Spain! You're right though. If i chose to move to France as a lifestyle choice, i would be keen to adopt the lifestyle. If i was seious about moving out there, however, i'd make sure that i knew the language before i left.
    True, though I think that's more of an attempt to establish a new Britain with better weather! I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to attempt that here.

    Firstly I'd like to say I do agree with you to an extent, I really don't know the extent to which totally opposing cultures can be integrated, I am certainly welcome to aspects of other cultures moulding with our own (cuisine, arts etc) but I don't know the extent to which communities will be able to integrate. My points were misdirected at you really, towards the people who are talking about British culture being 'destroyed'. I think the debate over the effectiveness for multiculturalism is a whole other can of worms.

    To address the idea of British culture being lost again: I agree the France example was poor but I meant it hypothetically. You're right about economic migrants not necassarily moving for the purposes of adopting the lifestyle, though I certainly think that they will have no motive for their culture to destroy any aspects of British life, and I think merely wishing to preserve your own culture at home without effecting the wider social picture, is perfectly normal.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    2. If you're moving to a foreign country, is it so unreasonable that you would be drawn towards people who you are more familiar with in terms of language and background? It doesn't necassarily express a lack of desire to integrate into British culture.
    If my rep power was worth more than zero I'd rep you for that, it is exactly right.

    Of course people are going to be drawn towards people who they are more familiar with in terms of language, culture, etc., it's understandable, and I'm sure if many of us moved to another country we would be exactly the same.

    It does not express a lack of desire to integrate, or a desire to integrate, it expresses only that their initial choice was to be with like minded people because it would make life easier and more comfortable, a natural, human instinct.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    If my rep power was worth more than zero I'd rep you for that, it is exactly right.

    Of course people are going to be drawn towards people who they are more familiar with in terms of language, culture, etc., it's understandable, and I'm sure if many of us moved to another country we would be exactly the same.

    It does not express a lack of desire to integrate, or a desire to integrate, it expresses only that their initial choice was to be with like minded people because it would make life easier and more comfortable, a natural, human instinct.

    And what do you make of the point he raised just before that one?

    In any case, the example you agreed with him on does directly apply to the past Britain you were talking about. That was when people were emigrating, after being invited into Britain. They wanted better lives, etc.

    It doesn't apply now, to the mass of immigrants who are fleeing their countries, and just need to get out as fast as possiblr, which is the case for many people. They dont sit thee thinking, right, Mugabe is on his way to chop my head off, quick, get the English dictionary out, lets learn englsh and oh, get out the book on housing in Britain so we can work out where the rest of us are living. They just come here, get dumped in special centres, then given options to pick bewtween areas where there are already a high proportion of immigrants. Therefore, it is through no fault of their own that they are concentrated. The two siuations are diffeent- one is from the past, and one is in the here and now. My arguments apply directly to the here and now. I KNOW that before, people may have gravitated towards people of their own cultures for stability, to slow it down and get comfy. I agreed with you there. But that doesnt apply to recent immigrants, and it was recent immigrants, or future immigrants, that the OP was referring to.
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    Oh dear, the looney is back...

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    In any case, the example you agreed with him on does directly apply to the past Britain you were talking about. That was when people were emigrating, after being invited into Britain. They wanted better lives, etc.

    It doesn't apply now
    Yes, it still apllies now, you fool.

    People are still going to be drawn towards people who they are more familiar with in terms of language, culture, etc.

    There wasn't a point in 1986 or some other year where every Pakistani, or African, or Indian, or Mongolian on the planet woke up and said "Bugger it, I really don't want to live anywhere near people of a similar culture, who speak my language, and I feel more comfrotable around"

    to the mass of immigrants who are fleeing their countries, and just need to get out as fast as possiblr, which is the case for many people.
    It's a case for a small minority, don't over play it.

    Of the 4,301,280 British residents born abroard, more than 4,200,000 came from countries with internationally recognised democratic regimes, that were not at war.

    You are trying to paint this picture that all of Britians immigrants are these poor war victims, running for their lives and being abused by the government on their arrival, but the simple facts are that this is not even approaching the case, and that the vast majority of immigrants, both in the past, and now, are people who have chosen to come here, from a safe and democratic enviroment, and upon their arrival elected to live with people of their own race.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    Oh dear, the looney is back...



    Yes, it still apllies now, you fool.

    People are still going to be drawn towards people who they are more familiar with in terms of language, culture, etc.

    There wasn't a point in 1986 or some other year where every Pakistani, or African, or Indian, or Mongolian on the planet woke up and said "Bugger it, I really don't want to live anywhere near people of a similar culture, who speak my language, and I feel more comfrotable around"



    It's a case for a small minority, don't over play it.

    Of the 4,301,280 British residents born abroard, more than 4,200,000 came from countries with internationally recognised democratic regimes, that were not at war.

    You are trying to paint this picture that all of Britians immigrants are these poor war victims, running for their lives and being abused by the government on their arrival, but the simple facts are that this is not even approaching the case, and that the vast majority of immigrants, both in the past, and now, are people who have chosen to come here, from a safe and democratic enviroment, and upon their arrival elected to live with people of their own race.
    Oh right. They leave their own countries for another, and then choose to live with others from their original countries. And the point of moving was.....? Better weather?
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    Of the 4,301,280 British residents born abroard, more than 4,200,000 came from countries with internationally recognised democratic regimes, that were not at war.
    Do you have a source for that?

    Notwithstanding, an "internationally recognized democratic regime" doesn't mean much. Afghanistan probably falls into this category but thats fairly meaningless because if you decide to convert to Christianity that democracy is not going to save you from the firing squad.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Oh right. They leave their own countries for another, and then choose to live with others from their original countries. And the point of moving was.....? Better weather?
    Well you'd be better asking them that, wouldn't you?

    I would suggest in a lot of cases it's either economics, or to follow family members that had already made a similar move.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Do you have a source for that?
    It comes from data from the Institute for Public Policy Research, and from the Sheffield University Social and Spatial Inequalities Research Group.

    Notwithstanding, an "internationally recognized democratic regime" doesn't mean much. Afghanistan probably falls into this category
    I agree the term "internationally recognized democratic regime" may well refer to things that we would shudder at, if offered to us, but, to use your example, Afghanistanians are excluded from the list of the "democratic" nations, so we really are only talking about people from places of real and genuine danger, and not even all of those people are in danger themselves.

    Take cottonmouths example, Zimbabwe, sure, that doesn't count as a democracy, in the data, so they are included as people fleeing a hostile regime, but some od those moved here before Mugabe came to power, and others came here after he came to power, but for reasons unrelated to him, for example to be with family, or for economic reasons, so the number of people actually fleeing, to this country, from a genuine danger is over represented in the figures above.

    It really is a very small minority of people.
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    Yes, but not just by immigrants, MTV has also turned a generation of British whites into a bunch of "thugs" with fake black accents.
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    (Original post by preparationH)
    Yes, but not just by immigrants, MTV has also turned a generation of British whites into a bunch of "thugs" with fake black accents.
    "Jafaican" I think they call it. Ansolutely pathetic.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    "Jafaican" I think they call it. Ansolutely pathetic.
    Wa G'wan Raasklaatz! 'ear me now, dis how we run tings........and the like
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    (Original post by Howard)
    "Jafaican" I think they call it. Absolutely pathetic.
    Or, its technical name, Multicultural London English.
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Wa G'wan Raasklaatz! 'ear me now, dis how we run tings........and the like
    Very good. Do you wear lots of really cheap immitation gold and wear your hat backwards as well?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Very good. Do you wear lots of really cheap immitation gold and wear your hat backwards as well?
    Yep. And my entire life consists of going on about 'eighths of weed', '**** dat ****' and how I was 'caned' last night:rolleyes:
 
 
 
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