Muslim students at Queen Mary calling for a ‘right to pray’ Watch

Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
I got a tsr account on the day they first told me about the campaign. I really thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss andI had a lot to say. I don’t like offending close friends so I created this topic to rant instead. I’m not going to name them on a public forum and I doubt you know every single Muslim student at QM. I actually explained as much as I knew at the time, I even included the point that the Isoc is not convinced thatthe hall is in use.
And thats your first thread :rolleyes:

Why don't you send me a PM with their names then?
You did say you know these friends who are "close" to the campaign didn't you? If they are close to the campaign they are no doubt ISOC people of whom I know everyone pretty much.
And the ISOC was right, so was the SU through spotchecks.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Another)
What if I was? What if I wasn't? Does it matter?

It didn't quite "just come up", you could have avoided it pretty easily. No matter which way you look at it, taking joy in destroying something else doesn't seem all too mature. I'll assume you have a legit reason for it...

I wasn't aware that ripping up a book would actually get you arrested. But if you wanted to prove to others why you don't believe in God and show them the way you think, surely that's alot less offensive than going "Hey, look what I can do, I can rip a page out of the holy book!"
It’s just that most non-Muslims on tsr would hardly care. Well I don’t see any reason for me to avoid it; I’m not ashamed of it in anyway. I just casually said it because it felt right and I don’t regret it. How can you set the objective limits for what actions constitute maturity? Just because you think it’s immature, doesn’t make it so. What do you even mean by maturity? Is maturity even an essential constitute of rightness? Well yes, I discuss religion almost every day with Muslims and non-Muslims I know. I find it easier to debate in real life than on a forum because people are more willing to listen. I have very strong sentiments about the topic, and if ripping up pages of the Quran makes me feel happy, why should I not go ahead and do it? It’s not harming anyone in anyway whatsoever.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
And thats your first thread :rolleyes:

Why don't you send me a PM with their names then?
You did say you know these friends who are "close" to the campaign didn't you? If they are close to the campaign they are no doubt ISOC people of whom I know everyone pretty much.
And the ISOC was right, so was the SU through spotchecks.
Yes I told you, it’s my first thread because I only got the account as I wanted to discuss that particular issue. Sorry, I want to keep my identity hidden on here, especially since I’ve criticized Islam so openly. If you approach them, then you’ll know who I am and so will they. They are close to the campaign as in being involved in it, not as in they are the ones leading it, and yes they are a part of the Isoc. I don’t think whether the halls were being used or not makes a difference.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Yes I told you, it’s my first thread because I only got the account as I wanted to discuss that particular issue. Sorry, I want to keep my identity hidden on here, especially since I’ve criticized Islam so openly. If you approach them, then you’ll know who I am and so will they. They are close to the campaign as in being involved in it, not as in they are the ones leading it, and yes they are a part of the Isoc. I don’t think whether the halls were being used or not makes a difference.
How would that even work.............if you can't even give me names of these people who are close to the campaign and yet you are making excuses not to give them.........not only that but made a lot of accusations and assumptions towards the ISOC, despite saying that you "know" these people, if you actually "know" them then you would have known a lot of things, but rather you made a lot of assumptions, etc.
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Oldcon1953
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These folks just want everyone to know they are praying. A public display of their piety. Intrusive accomodations to anyones religion have no standing and should not be tolerated or even be debated. If the capacity of the prayer room is not adequate let them go in in smaller groups.
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Oldcon1953
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As an American: this crap will continue until you Brits stop kissing Muslims asses. Quit feeling guilty. You owe them nothing more than you owe anyone else. No religion has any right to place demands on the public sector.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
How would that even work.............if you can't even give me names of these people who are close to the campaign and yet you are making excuses not to give them.........not only that but made a lot of accusations and assumptions towards the ISOC, despite saying that you "know" these people, if you actually "know" them then you would have known a lot of things, but rather you made a lot of assumptions, etc.
They’re not leading the campaign. They are simply supporting it, like thousands of other Muslim students at QM. There’s a reason why I’m discussing this on tsr, I don’t want them to know. So I wouldn’t want you approaching them with my name. What assumptions have I made? I’ve used all the information I had available to me during the discussion and I adjusted my arguments in the face of new information that you provided me. I would have been completely oblivious to this campaign like most people are unless they’d told me about it.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
They’re not leading the campaign. They are simply supporting it, like thousands of other Muslim students at QM. There’s a reason why I’m discussing this on tsr, I don’t want them to know. So I wouldn’t want you approaching them with my name. What assumptions have I made? I’ve used all the information I had available to me during the discussion and I adjusted my arguments in the face of new information that you provided me. I would have been completely oblivious to this campaign like most people are unless they’d told me about it.
Well suddenly you're changing your story...........first they were "close" to the campaign and you know the isoc people.........now they aren't leading and are simply supporting it? Make up your mind.

I wouldn't know your name, all I asked for there's, so I could confirm that you weren't chatting crap...........and clearly from your refusal to tell me and even backtracking and changing your story its quite clear you are.
And actually they have been telling me, they had been telling others as well as being in the library square and spreading the message on social networks.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Well suddenly you're changing your story...........first they were "close" to the campaign and you know the isoc people.........now they aren't leading and are simply supporting it? Make up your mind.

I wouldn't know your name, all I asked for there's, so I could confirm that you weren't chatting crap...........and clearly from your refusal to tell me and even backtracking and changing your story its quite clear you are.
And actually they have been telling me, they had been telling others as well as being in the library square and spreading the message on social networks.

Yes I said they were close to the campaign, as in they are taking part in it, not as in they’re the ones leading it. If I give you their name what would you do? Go up to them and then say ‘hey did you tell one of your ex-Muslim friends about this campaign’? There are a few problems here. Firstly they’ll ask how the **** you know me and ask me how I know you. Secondly I don’t want them to know it’s me on tsr. Thirdly, I would feel VERY UNSAFE if you somehow came to know anything about me from them, and there’s no guarantee that you won’t ask them anything about me. I know ex-Muslims have been threatened and even attacked before for their views and from your tone I can tell you’re becoming very frustrated with me... and you're part of an Islamic Society of like minded people.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Yes I said they were close to the campaign, as in they are taking part in it, not as in they’re the ones leading it. If I give you their name what would you do? Go up to them and then say ‘hey did you tell one of your ex-Muslim friends about this campaign’? There are a few problems here. Firstly they’ll ask how the **** you know me and ask me how I know you. Secondly I don’t want them to know it’s me on tsr. Thirdly, I would feel VERY UNSAFE if you somehow came to know anything about me from them, and there’s no guarantee that you won’t ask them anything about me. I know ex-Muslims have been threatened and even attacked before for their views and from your tone I can tell you’re becoming very frustrated with me... and you're part of an Islamic Society of like minded people.
No ones exactly leading it thats the thing, its a joint thing..........if they are "close" to the campaign then yes they would be posting about it, they would know the isoc people.
If you tell me their names, then I would know that these "friends" are actually real and you aren't simply one of those people who makes a account to start bashing other peoples campaign simply because it has to do with Islam.

:rofl: And again its quite clear you are chatting utter non-sense.........making stupid remarks and assumptions about others and the views of the isoc....hence why I am doubting that you're even remotely telling the truth. Tone? I hadn't realise people had tones when writing.

And I am not part of the ISOC, I'm not even a member, never ever been so, I simply know the people running it, and use their prayer rooms and so forth. So as you can see, its quite clear for anyone to doubt your views, and how you are going around chatting non-sense and making assumptions and yet still go on about how you "know" people who are close to the campaign.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
No ones exactly leading it thats the thing, its a joint thing..........if they are "close" to the campaign then yes they would be posting about it, they would know the isoc people.
If you tell me their names, then I would know that these "friends" are actually real and you aren't simply one of those people who makes a account to start bashing other peoples campaign simply because it has to do with Islam.

:rofl: And again its quite clear you are chatting utter non-sense.........making stupid remarks and assumptions about others and the views of the isoc....hence why I am doubting that you're even remotely telling the truth. Tone? I hadn't realise people had tones when writing.

And I am not part of the ISOC, I'm not even a member, never ever been so, I simply know the people running it, and use their prayer rooms and so forth. So as you can see, its quite clear for anyone to doubt your views, and how you are going around chatting non-sense and making assumptions and yet still go on about how you "know" people who are close to the campaign.
I doubt that all of the hundreds of students who are members of the Isoc are actively organizing the campaign. I can give you a specific detail that I wouldn’t know otherwise, unless it was from someone taking part in the campaign. I know that during one of your spot checks a Muslim student recorded the hall not being in use on Friday on their phone to prove that QM initially lied. If I tell you their name how can I guarantee that you won’t approach them and inquire about me? I suppose the mistrust is mutual.
Yes exactly. I already told you that the only reason I got the account was to discuss this issue because I did not want to discuss it so critically with Muslim friends.
Off course writing can have tone. Notice the difference between these two statements: A. “You’re chatting utter crap!” B. “I think you’re completely misinformed”. See how they mean the same thing but A comes across as more aggressive than B?
You’re accusations are extremely vague. I keep asking you to tell me what assumptions I’m making? If you look through my posts you’ll see that I’ve justified everything I’ve said and adjusted my arguments in the light of new information.
Can I ask why you’re not a member of the Isoc? You go QM, you’re Muslim, and you clearly support their cause.
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Rascacielos
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I think anybody should be allowed to pray if they like, and the lecture theatre seems like an appropriate place, provided that the university doesn't have to go far out of its way to accommodate that. I don't think it's right that lectures should have to be rearranged to accommodate prayer, unless perhaps it's very easily done (these things usually aren't though) because a university is primarily an institution of learning, not prayer, and that has to take precedence as a result.

A university wouldn't demand to take over a mosque at a prayer time, but it might be entitled to use it for teaching when nobody will be there, so the reverse should apply too.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
I doubt that all of the hundreds of students who are members of the Isoc are actively organizing the campaign. I can give you a specific detail that I wouldn’t know otherwise, unless it was from someone taking part in the campaign. I know that during one of your spot checks a Muslim student recorded the hall not being in use on Friday on their phone to prove that QM initially lied. If I tell you their name how can I guarantee that you won’t approach them and inquire about me? I suppose the mistrust is mutual.
Yes exactly. I already told you that the only reason I got the account was to discuss this issue because I did not want to discuss it so critically with Muslim friends.

It's not even in the hundreds in terms of membership, a lot of people take the ISOC as granted hence the membership level is low.
Actually thats something everyone knows, I actually saw that evidence up on facebook which is open for all to see.
Well firstly you had some issues behind the reasoning, rather than asking them you made loads of wrongful assumptions and why they were campaigning.


Off course writing can have tone. Notice the difference between these two statements: A. “You’re chatting utter crap!” B. “I think you’re completely misinformed”. See how they mean the same thing but A comes across as more aggressive than B?
You’re accusations are extremely vague. I keep asking you to tell me what assumptions I’m making? If you look through my posts you’ll see that I’ve justified everything I’ve said and adjusted my arguments in the light of new information.
Can I ask why you’re not a member of the Isoc? You go QM, you’re Muslim, and you clearly support their cause.
In my opinion its not like that at all......also maybe check what I said......I said "utter non-sense" nor did I use any !, so I don't see how I was being aggressive.
Actually this is the first time you are asking me about the "assumptions".......lets see like its "unjustified campaign " or "there are several nearby mosques" or how they are "demanding", etc. Have they demanded, no they haven't, they had meetings with the university to discuss being able to book out the halls, after a year of such things the meetings weren't going no where, hence they did a campaign to raise awareness that they do in fact need the halls due to overcrowding.

Yes I support their cause, because it effects me and so what if I'm not part of the ISOC.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
In my opinion its not like that at all......also maybe check what I said......I said "utter non-sense" nor did I use any !, so I don't see how I was being aggressive.
Actually this is the first time you are asking me about the "assumptions".......lets see like its "unjustified campaign " or "there are several nearby mosques" or how they are "demanding", etc. Have they demanded, no they haven't, they had meetings with the university to discuss being able to book out the halls, after a year of such things the meetings weren't going no where, hence they did a campaign to raise awareness that they do in fact need the halls due to overcrowding.

Yes I support their cause, because it effects me and so what if I'm not part of the ISOC.
I’ve looked through your posts, and I can clearly see instances where you used that tone.
I said I THINK it’s an unjustified campaign not that it IS an unjustified campaign. By its very nature that comment is an assumption, it cannot not be an assumption if it is my opinion. We would not be able to have debates without opinions and hence assumptions of this nature are necessary.
Well there are nearby mosques/ prayer facilities which are all less than a mile away: Shah Jalal Mosque, Al-Huda Cultural Centre and Mosque, Globe Town Mosque and Cultural Centre, Mazahirul Uloom London, Baitul Aman Mosque and Cultural Centre, Bow Community Association Mosque and Cultural Centre, Islamic Education Centre, Redcoat Community Centre & Mosque… the list goes on.
It is demanding in the sense that after they asked to use the hall they could not take ‘no’ for an answer. If it was simply a request then clearly they would be willing to accept the response. Furthermore the Isoc stated that they will campaign until their need is met; that is essentially saying ‘we will not let you rest until you say yes’. That is a demand, not a request.
It doesn’t make a difference to me. I simply was curious as to why you aren’t a member of the Isoc.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
I’ve looked through your posts, and I can clearly see instances where you used that tone.
I said I THINK it’s an unjustified campaign not that it IS an unjustified campaign. By its very nature that comment is an assumption, it cannot not be an assumption if it is my opinion. We would not be able to have debates without opinions and hence assumptions of this nature are necessary.
Well there are nearby mosques/ prayer facilities which are all less than a mile away: Shah Jalal Mosque, Al-Huda Cultural Centre and Mosque, Globe Town Mosque and Cultural Centre, Mazahirul Uloom London, Baitul Aman Mosque and Cultural Centre, Bow Community Association Mosque and Cultural Centre, Islamic Education Centre, Redcoat Community Centre & Mosque… the list goes on.
It is demanding in the sense that after they asked to use the hall they could not take ‘no’ for an answer. If it was simply a request then clearly they would be willing to accept the response. Furthermore the Isoc stated that they will campaign until their need is met; that is essentially saying ‘we will not let you rest until you say yes’. That is a demand, not a request.
It doesn’t make a difference to me. I simply was curious as to why you aren’t a member of the Isoc.
Again, you said "utter crap", yet you failed to prove that I did, its quite clear I haven't and now again you are using "assumptions" to attack to me with.
And once again, the Mosque line has been clearly countered, even with proof from the imams from these mosques and by simply understanding the suitability of them of which one falls, yet the imam himself said that they cannot accommodate them.

It is demanding in the sense that after they asked
I hadn't realised "asking" has become demanding now nor is campaigning, and so what if they carried on campaigning it doesn't affect you only affects the ISOC and they feel that there was something wrong.......they had over a years worth of meetings, the University believed that the current usage of the prayer rooms were adequate to the contrary not only that but if you looked recently at the council meeting, they found failings with the procedure for the usage of the halls caused by admins.
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t to the z
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(Original post by finnthehuman)
As a muslim, they should just go out and do it on the grass or something. as allah created the whole earth as prayer area. Saves all the BS.

Edit: Yay, I got rep stormed! But anyway, I am not saying it's bad to pray(I pray my prayers) but you'd rather burden yourself than burden others. If they say no, it's no.
true but its always nice to tell pips to pray
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Marco1
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There's reasonable campaigning and then there is belligerent self-interest with obstinate disregard for the equilibrium and secular ethos of a London university institution. There are mosques just down the road. Go attend to your spiritual needs in private because as a student, you don't automatically get the right to practice your religion on campus. You chose to go to university but forgot to leave your religious demands at home. This is an example of pushy, demanding religious folk who seemingly don't have the software to navigate the ethical waters of appropriate social context.
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ForgetMe
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(Original post by finnthehuman)
As a muslim, they should just go out and do it on the grass or something. as allah created the whole earth as prayer area. Saves all the BS.

Edit: Yay, I got rep stormed! But anyway, I am not saying it's bad to pray(I pray my prayers) but you'd rather burden yourself than burden others. If they say no, it's no.
Agree. There's a guy who I saw praying on a piece of carton and I assume he was Muslim, yet he doesn't demand a separate room, in order to be able to pray. He just went to another part of the warehouse and did his pray.
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User1310602
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Again, you said "utter crap", yet you failed to prove that I did, its quite clear I haven't and now again you are using "assumptions" to attack to me with.
And once again, the Mosque line has been clearly countered, even with proof from the imams from these mosques and by simply understanding the suitability of them of which one falls, yet the imam himself said that they cannot accommodate them.



I hadn't realised "asking" has become demanding now nor is campaigning, and so what if they carried on campaigning it doesn't affect you only affects the ISOC and they feel that there was something wrong.......they had over a years worth of meetings, the University believed that the current usage of the prayer rooms were adequate to the contrary not only that but if you looked recently at the council meeting, they found failings with the procedure for the usage of the halls caused by admins.
I did not at any point say that you used that phrase; I was using it to explain how words can embody tone. I am not making attacks, I'm simply telling you that I would feel unsafe if you found out my identity. So you’re telling me the local 20+ mosques/ prayer facilities within a 1 mile radius CANNOT cater for few hundred extra Muslims? That’s really unbelievable, to say the least.
When you ask someone for something and they refuse, and you decide to press on until they say 'yes', then it becomes a demand. I believe the campaign was to go on until they had given into demands. If the year’s worth of meetings still lead to a refusal, the Isoc should have accepted the decision. It wasn’t an arbitrary ‘no’, but one which was a result of informative deliberation. So when the Isoc ‘feel’ the refusal was wrong then it must be the case, even though many of us on here ‘feel’ it was right?
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
I did not at any point say that you used that phrase; I was using it to explain how words can embody tone. I am not making attacks, I'm simply telling you that I would feel unsafe if you found out my identity. So you’re telling me the local 20+ mosques/ prayer facilities within a 1 mile radius CANNOT cater for few hundred extra Muslims? That’s really unbelievable, to say the least.
When you ask someone for something and they refuse, and you decide to press on until they say 'yes', then it becomes a demand. I believe the campaign was to go on until they had given into demands. If the year’s worth of meetings still lead to a refusal, the Isoc should have accepted the decision. It wasn’t an arbitrary ‘no’, but one which was a result of informative deliberation. So when the Isoc ‘feel’ the refusal was wrong then it must be the case, even though many of us on here ‘feel’ it was right?
Yet haven't used such tone, as through your example.

20+? The reality is very different, there is only 1 mosque thats close enough for usage by the universities Muslim which itself has stated it cannot accommodate them......I have even stated it in the first page of this thread, detailing why they can't, there is no space, they can't even barely accommodate their local communities.
They didn't keep asking, they simply campaigned to raise awareness of the issue, such as praying outside the Queens building so the Principle himself can see how many people genuinely turn up and understand that there clearly isn't enough space. There is absolutely nothing wrong with how they did things, politics has always worked like this........as have Student unions over many issues but no one complains about that.
And it was wrong, if you went to the recent Council Meeting you would've heard that the University admitted that there was some sort of Admin error and issue behind restricting access to the halls and that they were wrong to do so. The SU is even now pushing for a report into the usage of University space and how there's a lot of inefficiency, etc
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