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How do girls feel about being approached in the street? Watch

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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    Nothing there is contradictory...
    Let's break it down.

    You said:
    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    I don't see how this is even a discussion. If there is even a small chance that your actions might cause someone distress, you'd have to be a thoughtless prick to go through with it.
    I said:

    (Original post by miser)
    The attitude cole-slaw has been promoting is of wanting members of a society to become more and more insular until nobody has any chance of making any other member of society uncomfortable, but by doing so is actually perpetuating these feelings of discomfort by encouraging us to have a society in which people are vulnerable to it.
    If everyone avoided doing anything that might possibly cause another person distress, you'd end up with the negative outcomes I was talking about in my post. If you don't actually believe what you wrote, you can redact it, change your mind - whatever - but you don't have licence to say what I wrote was a strawman when it is a direct response to the ideas you have brought up throughout this thread.

    As for conflating "people talking to each other with people making uninvited sexual passes at strangers", you are the person who is suggesting that going up and talking to someone you don't know in public is sexual harrassment - I don't believe there is anything necessarily sexual about any of it - it entirely depends on what you say and how you say it.
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    (Original post by miser)
    Let's break it down.

    You said:


    I said:



    If everyone avoided doing anything that might possibly cause another person distress, you'd end up with the negative outcomes I was talking about in my post. If you don't actually believe what you wrote, you can redact it, change your mind - whatever - but you don't have licence to say what I wrote was a strawman when it is a direct response to the ideas you have brought up throughout this thread.

    As for conflating "people talking to each other with people making uninvited sexual passes at strangers", you are the person who is suggesting that going up and talking to someone you don't know in public is sexual harrassment - I don't believe there is anything necessarily sexual about any of it - it entirely depends on what you say and how you say it.
    Hit the nail right on the head.
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    Seems to work for the pickup guys on youtube though I'm not sure if their videos feature paid actors.
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    (Original post by miser)
    Let's break it down.

    You said:


    I said:



    If everyone avoided doing anything that might possibly cause another person distress, you'd end up with the negative outcomes I was talking about in my post. If you don't actually believe what you wrote, you can redact it, change your mind - whatever - but you don't have licence to say what I wrote was a strawman when it is a direct response to the ideas you have brought up throughout this thread.

    As for conflating "people talking to each other with people making uninvited sexual passes at strangers", you are the person who is suggesting that going up and talking to someone you don't know in public is sexual harrassment - I don't believe there is anything necessarily sexual about any of it - it entirely depends on what you say and how you say it.
    Using your previous example, would you cross the street and stop a man and tell him he had a great smile?

    No you wouldn't, because he'd think you were coming on to him.

    So your motive is obviously sexual. You know this, I know this, the person you are approaching knows this. So its obviously NOT the same thing as casually remarking to the girl next to you at the bus stop how late it is or how rubbish the weather has been recently. We're talking about two very different things, do NOT conflate them, because all you do is derail the conversation and obfuscate.


    Look: the social norm of behaviour in the UK, or indeed any country I am aware of, is that there are stages you have to go through in any interaction before it becomes acceptable to openly flirt.

    People who ignore these norms are seen as creepy, discomforting, harassing, and in extreme cases could lead to sexual assault or rape.

    By ignoring these boundaries, you are knowingly discomforting these people with uninvited sexual attention, which exactly fits the legal definition of sexual harassment whether you or Ade9000 like it or not.
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    (Original post by keromedic)
    Seems to work for the pickup guys on youtube though I'm not sure if their videos feature paid actors.
    They probably just edit out the 8 million times they get told to **** off.

    Even then, in the clips they keep, you can clearly see how deeply, deeply uncomfortable they're making their victims.

    These pua losers are nothing to wish to emulate. If you want to make strange women feel uncomfortable, become a flasher, its quicker and easier.
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    (Original post by Ade9000)
    Point it out. Actually, scratch that. I've asked you to elaborate a number of things and you haven't. Do what you like.
    Quite some time ago, I said:

    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    There's nothing wrong with talking to strangers at all, I talk to strangers all the time. In the shop, at the bus stop, sitting outside a cafe. Its a good, friendly thing to do.
    you then claimed

    [you concluded that all forms of street conversation was harassmentp
    which as we can see, is the exact opposite of what I actually said.


    Pretty much the clearest example of a strawman you're ever likely to find on TSR.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    Using your previous example, would you cross the street and stop a man and tell him he had a great smile?

    No you wouldn't, because he'd think you were coming on to him.

    So your motive is obviously sexual. You know this, I know this, the person you are approaching knows this. So its obviously NOT the same thing as casually remarking to the girl next to you at the bus stop how late it is or how rubbish the weather has been recently. We're talking about two very different things, do NOT conflate them, because all you do is derail the conversation and obfuscate.
    It was my understanding of your view that you were also against a person talking to a woman and saying anything, sexual or not. If you think it's okay for a man to talk to a woman about the weather then we agree on that. But I don't see why you would because she could still feel uncomfortable.

    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    Look: the social norm of behaviour in the UK, or indeed any country I am aware of, is that there are stages you have to go through in any interaction before it becomes acceptable to openly flirt.

    People who ignore these norms are seen as creepy, discomforting, harassing, and in extreme cases could lead to sexual assault or rape.

    By ignoring these boundaries, you are knowingly discomforting these people with uninvited sexual attention, which exactly fits the legal definition of sexual harassment whether you or Ade9000 like it or not.
    I think you're mistaken about that. I think how she sees you varies a great deal depending on both you and her - not just on whether you've 'flirted too soon'. I wouldn't jump straight into properly flirting - that probably wouldn't even work - but after introductions there really aren't as many boundaries as you probably think there are.

    And flirting with people too soon does not lead to sexual assault or rape - that's ridiculous.

    And I notice you only replied to this part of my previous post - I take it that you conceded the other part.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    Quite some time ago, I said:



    you then claimed



    which as we can see, is the exact opposite of what I actually said.


    Pretty much the clearest example of a strawman you're ever likely to find on TSR.
    Read miser's reply to you and maybe something will sink in.

    And why is the bus stop or shop different from the street? People can be made uncomfortable from approaches in the these environments and their purpose is not for socializing, before you throw that out. A bus stop is where you wait for a bus and a shop is where you buy utensils to suit your needs. By using you logic, you've actually contradicted yourself. You also mention that the moment you engage some on the street you're harassing on the basis of the probability that they might be uncomfortable, which can be seen here;

    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    The point is that it is impossible for you to tell at a glance which camp a stranger in the street falls into before you approach, so you have no way of knowing you're not about to harass them.

    Therefore, don't do it.
    Therefore since there is a possibilty that any type of interaction on the street can lead to discomfort and following through with your logic, all forms of street conversation can be classed as harassment.

    You get it now? I won't hold my breath.
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    (Original post by miser)
    It was my understanding of your view that you were also against a person talking to a woman and saying anything, sexual or not. If you think it's okay for a man to talk to a woman about the weather then we agree on that. But I don't see why you would because she could still feel uncomfortable.
    You've misunderstood, that's ok, we all skim read other people's long boring posts.

    The social norm is that polite small talk when it is natural to do so is fine, but immediate sexual flirting such as giving a transparent complement (as an opening gambit) is not.

    Going out of your way to talk to someone for no apparent reason - eg chasing them down the street - falls into the second category.


    I think you're mistaken about that. I think how she sees you varies a great deal depending on both you and her - not just on whether you've 'flirted too soon'. I wouldn't jump straight into properly flirting - that probably wouldn't even work - but after introductions there really aren't as many boundaries as you probably think there are.

    And flirting with people too soon does not lead to sexual assault or rape - that's ridiculous.

    And I notice you only replied to this part of my previous post - I take it that you conceded the other part.
    Not necessarily It just becomes too laborious to reply to every sentence of a long post.

    As I explained in my post to hal-e-lujah, once you decide you're going to start ignoring social boundaries, its a sliding scale between sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. Its like the difference between petty shop lifting and armed robbery, there's a world of different but you're crossing a line.
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    (Original post by Ade9000)

    And why is the bus stop or shop different from the street?
    You've already asked me this question, and I've already answered it.


    Because I'm a patient chap and you're clearly the sort that needs things to be explained multiple times, I'll repeat my answer.

    At the bus stop, you're stationary, and generally not occupied with anything else, so you're not interrupting them. You may be in someone's presence for a non-negligible time period. This gives you time to exchange non-verbal cues and makes small talk appropriate.

    In the street, you're in motion. Any interactions are fleeting and transitory. There is no time for anything more than a nod or a smile. People may be in a rush, so interrupting them would probably inconvenience them. Attempting to make small talk is therefore socially inappropriate.

    I hope that helps you understand. I see you are new to TSR, please feel free to ask any more questions you might have and we will try and help you out.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    You've already asked me this question, and I've already answered it.


    Because I'm a patient chap and you're clearly the sort that needs things to be explained multiple times, I'll repeat my answer.

    At the bus stop, you're stationary, and generally not occupied with anything else, so you're not interrupting them. You may be in someone's presence for a non-negligible time period. This gives you time to exchange non-verbal cues and makes small talk appropriate.

    In the street, you're in motion. Any interactions are fleeting and transitory. There is no time for anything more than a nod or a smile. People may be in a rush, so interrupting them would probably inconvenience them. Attempting to make small talk is therefore socially inappropriate.

    I hope that helps you understand. I see you are new to TSR, please feel free to ask any more questions you might have and we will try and help you out.
    So we've gone from harassment to socially inappropriate? Good transition.

    You haven't really answered my question. That was obvious. You can still make someone uncomfortable at the bus stop, regardless of whether or not they're occupied (which you seemingly ignored) and some people aren't always in a rush when on the street, otherwise stalls and the volunteers for charities on the streets would've been kicked off (which you seemed to ignore, too). Your argument base is getting weaker. You even ignored the shop example, which is further evidence.

    I'm not that new to TSR. In fact I've been around longer than you. Nice try.

    Still haven't elaborated on my previous post about how it's only harassment when men do it. But then again, you've been selective from the start.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    You've misunderstood, that's ok, we all skim read other people's long boring posts.

    The social norm is that polite small talk when it is natural to do so is fine, but immediate sexual flirting such as giving a transparent complement (as an opening gambit) is not.

    Going out of your way to talk to someone for no apparent reason - eg chasing them down the street - falls into the second category.

    Not necessarily It just becomes too laborious to reply to every sentence of a long post.

    As I explained in my post to hal-e-lujah, once you decide you're going to start ignoring social boundaries, its a sliding scale between sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. Its like the difference between petty shop lifting and armed robbery, there's a world of different but you're crossing a line.
    I think that we just fundamentally disagree over whether talking to people you don't know should be a big deal or not. Happy to agree to disagree. I just don't have the stomach for living my life in bubble wrap or encouraging people to do the same.
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    depends on the person, I really would feel uncomfortable if someone just approached me on the street. Yesterday, some random dude asked my mate how old she was and she just replied "old enough".
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    (Original post by Ade9000)
    So we've gone from harassment to socially inappropriate? Good transition.

    You haven't really answered my question. That was obvious. You can still make someone uncomfortable at the bus stop, regardless of whether or not they're occupied (which you seemingly ignored) and some people aren't always in a rush when on the street, otherwise stalls and the volunteers for charities on the streets would've been kicked off (which you seemed to ignore, too). Your argument base is getting weaker. You even ignored the shop example, which is further evidence.

    I'm not that new to TSR. In fact I've been around longer than you. Nice try.

    Still haven't elaborated on my previous post about how it's only harassment when men do it. But then again, you've been selective from the start.
    You're just knocking down strawmen here.

    Let me answer your "points".

    It becomes sexual harassment when the socially inappropriate interaction has a sexual element.

    I did answer you question. If you have another question, please feel free to ask.

    Yes you can still make someone uncomfortable at a bus stop if you interact in an inappropriate manner. So much is obvious.

    Yes there are circumstances, for example at market stalls, where it is acceptable to talk to people. But thats not what we've been talking about so I don't know why you've brought it up.

    What was your point about a shop? I think I must have missed it.

    Its more likely for socially inappropriate behaviour to become sexual harassment when it is a man harassing a woman, because women have a legitimate fear of being attacked and raped by strange men. If a man starts transgressing social boundaries for example by making sexually suggestive comments, this is obviously likely to unnerve her.
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    (Original post by miser)
    I think that we just fundamentally disagree over whether talking to people you don't know should be a big deal or not. Happy to agree to disagree. I just don't have the stomach for living my life in bubble wrap or encouraging people to do the same.
    I would agree to disagree, but I don't think we DO disagree. We both agree that talking to strangers in an appropriate way is to be encouraged. I talk to strangers all the time.


    What we disagree on is whether it is morally acceptable to sexually harass multiple women in the hope that eventually one of them "won't mind". I think it isn't, and multiple women's groups agree with me. You appear to think it is.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    You're just knocking down strawmen here.

    Let me answer your "points".

    It becomes sexual harassment when the socially inappropriate interaction has a sexual element.

    I did answer you question. If you have another question, please feel free to ask.

    Yes you can still make someone uncomfortable at a bus stop if you interact in an inappropriate manner. So much is obvious.

    Yes there are circumstances, for example at market stalls, where it is acceptable to talk to people. But thats not what we've been talking about so I don't know why you've brought it up.

    What was your point about a shop? I think I must have missed it.

    Its more likely for socially inappropriate behaviour to become sexual harassment when it is a man harassing a woman, because women have a legitimate fear of being attacked and raped by strange men. If a man starts transgressing social boundaries for example by making sexually suggestive comments, this is obviously likely to unnerve her.
    *Heavy sigh* I'm done. It's almost as if I'm talking to a wall, a very agile (and sexist) wall at that. Agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    I would agree to disagree, but I don't think we DO disagree. We both agree that talking to strangers in an appropriate way is to be encouraged. I talk to strangers all the time.


    What we disagree on is whether it is morally acceptable to sexually harass multiple women in the hope that eventually one of them "won't mind". I think it isn't, and multiple women's groups agree with me. You appear to think it is.
    We agree that sexual harassment is morally unacceptable; we disagree on what constitutes sexual harassment. You also frame it that the majority of people mind when my experience would tell me the opposite (that it is flattering). I'm sceptical that you're basing your views on experience rather than second-hand experiences, for which the only reason you are hearing about them is because they were negative.
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    I wouldn't mind it, otherwise how the hell do you ever get to meet people other than college and uni!
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    Another question is that why would this ever be necessary?

    I must know hundreds of guys with girlfriends or who never struggle to find dates or hookups, and none of them has ever approached a stranger in the street. I doubt any of them know what PUA stands for.


    Ironically, I suspect that it is precisely because they respect social boundaries that they are able to find willing partners so easily.

    (Original post by miser)
    We agree that sexual harassment is morally unacceptable; we disagree on what constitutes sexual harassment. You also frame it that the majority of people mind when my experience would tell me the opposite (that it is flattering). I'm sceptical that you're basing your views on experience rather than second-hand experiences, for which the only reason you are hearing about them is because they were negative.
    I replied to you but TSR went mental and my reply was lost. I can't be bothered to retype it so I'm changing the focus as I feel this particular avenue has been discussed to death.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    Another question is that why would this ever be necessary?

    I must know hundreds of guys with girlfriends or who never struggle to find dates or hookups, and none of them has ever approached a stranger in the street. I doubt any of them know what PUA stands for.

    Ironically, I suspect that it is precisely because they respect social boundaries that they are able to find willing partners so easily.
    Because I don't understand how people can expect to meet the person who's right for them when they're handicapping themselves to such a crazy degree by requiring that that person happen to be a friend of a friend. People are all the time asking on this site how they can meet people. I posted in a thread like that just yesterday.

    For me, I don't go out to clubs and things very often because I'm very busy. If I wanted to meet someone new, whilst simultaneously overlooking everyone I wouldn't usually talk to, it'd take me forever. When I was at uni that'd be one thing, but now I'm in a male-dominated career with little opportunity for socialising with women my age. I'm a member of clubs and things but these also are male-dominated interests with other busy people. It's nice your friends are all managing it but if I wanted to meet a new girl I expect I'd find it more difficult than them.

    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    I replied to you but TSR went mental and my reply was lost. I can't be bothered to retype it so I'm changing the focus as I feel this particular avenue has been discussed to death.
    Ok. I don't mind dropping that strand of the conversation.
 
 
 
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